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This one reminds me of the trailer shots for Blade Runner 2049 that are on a lake shore. It was created with my usual process of designing the scene and letting the synths run without touching them during recording.

Maybe Sweetwater will redirect this to either the Mutable or Intellijel version on their website, like they did with the Swing. I thought that was a nice gesture...and once they did it, you really didn't hear much about the Swing anymore.
-- Lugia

@Lugia Did they really do this? I never noticed but that is a pretty cool move for a company that I thought had done a complete 180 on Behringer. I remember years ago when they didn't even sell Behringer products at all, for whatever reasons they had.
-- merzky_shoom

hay guys, I just did some link checking, and if you go to Behringer's site for the FOUL PLAY, and click the affiliate buy link for Sweetwater, you do in fact, get the Intellijel Quad VCA Eurorack Amplifier and Cascaded Mixer Module

so ya, there is that.

This entire Behringer thing reminds me of the old Kush vs schwag argument. Both do the job, one is just way more expensive and "luxury" while the other is for the "lower class" .

So this schwag going for 105.13 USD or £89.00 Euro.
The Kush is 189 USD or 159.99 Euro

https://www.andertons.co.uk/ shows a 3 month lead time.

wuba wuba wuba

60 pages on a VCA is quite extensive. I think it might be information overload. You're basically writing the instruction manual we wished came with the module.

The work looks to be top-notch but an overkill for most people looking for reviews.

In no means am I denigrating the sheer volume of time and experience put into the docs. But someone who will read 60 pages on one module would seem to be rare.

I have bought from Michigan Synth Works. I would buy from them again.

I find Mutable Instruments stuff to be powerful. But you really have to learn and memorize the functionality of all the different modes to get the most out of them. They are surprisingly complicated when you consider that one knob might control three or four different parameters depending on which mode(s) you are selecting.

This tends to kill my modular buzz. I would definitely consider Mutable's stuff to be the West-Coast side of modular. How a module functions tends to be the most important thing to me after a few years of doing this... even more so than its actual functionality.

I got the Mackie Big Knob Passive for a coworker. It's around $70US. It allows you to switch between two sets of inputs and two sets of monitors. It comes with a mute and a dim switch. It'll last forever since it's passive.

Your other option is to buy an inexpensive four channel compact mixer to be the gate-keeper to your monitors. A four channel, stereo output mixer is $60US. That will come with more routing options like control room vs main outs.

The case... is just a box with rails stuck to it. It's no more complicated than building your own 19" studio rack. Where I would NOT build my own is anything to do with the power supply. You can buy complete solutions for power. It really boils down to how much time you want to invest in building your own versus just paying for something prefabricated.

The Intellijel 1U standard is becoming more and more popular and there are other vendors beside Intellijel competing for that space now. Having 1U units is great but it's not a necessity. I like mine. But I wouldn't say that it makes that much of a difference unless you have a specific need... like air travel or limited space. Almost everything you see in 1U has a comparable 3U module. You won't be missing out if you don't go with 1U.

Finally, the resale value on Eurorack is pretty high. So there's not a huge penalty for changing your mind on a few modules. Buy or build your first case. Make it as large as you can reasonably afford in cost and space. Since you already have two semi-modular synths, start slowly. Some sequencers, a couple of effects units, and some mixer/utility modules will add a lot of possibilities to what you already have. Then you can always add more modules as you develop your own tastes and style.

I think we'll see a stratification of the market. The "simple" analog modules will get less and less expensive. When it comes down to it, for the bread & butter stuff... people are all drawing from the same pool of electronic components. If you're rolling your own diodes and ICs and next-level stuff... okay.

But if you're building yet another MS-20 filter clone, not so much.

I'm fine with Behringer blowing out the easy stuff and low hanging fruit. It introduces more people into modular synthesis. How many buffered mults do we need?

The creative Eurorack builders will still be around. The innovators will be around.

We get it, you had a bad experience with Cr8audio... but I had bad experiences as well, and with well-known manufacturers, yet you don't see me dissing on them everywhere I can, it's called restraint and perspective, you should try it some time.
And no, people hating on Behringer are not all 50+ white men in their man-cave trying to gatekeep the Eurorack niche, you've been pointed to the information before but chose to ignore it because that serves the rationale you use to justify buying it yourself... It's getting awkward.

-- toodee

Just for the record, I'm not a 50+ year old or a white man. This is probably the first post on here that I've seen that has anything to do with age or race. Can we keep it about the synths? I always thought of this site as some place we can all connect with our shared interest.

EDITED Jul 26th 2021, 15:52

"They're destroying the modular community!" Lower costs and quality products will only expand the modular community.
-- Valektricity

lol "quality products" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
P.O.S 💩 more like

Modular is certainly an expensive adventure. Sometimes the economical route is the only choice, and I wouldn't hold it against someone if they choose that route. But one thing to keep in mind, if everyone gives their money to the cloners instead of the innovators, we are eventually going to run out of innovators.

Uli… is that you?

Hi ModularGridCommunity
I'm very newbbie, i'm play around with Neutron and Model D but i'd like to build my own modular to upgrade my layer of sound.
I'm oriented to ambient/drone music and this two machine start to be to tight.

I'd like to start from case and i have 3 question:
-I think to project an 82 or 104 HP rack system, my goal is to think a modular that can grow up in future and also can be portable, i can't decide because i can't figure how this machine can evolve, have you got some advice about it?

• I'm stuck on decision to project a rack with 3u+1u or 6u, this because i see some intresting 1umodule and this can make me save space for portability, but intellijel module are expensive and there is some 3hp module that do the same. What you think about it? Is there a plate that can mount 1u in 3u?

• Buy just build or diy rack? I watching around for case and the affordable option for me is Bheringer or tipTop rail to insert in case, seem like easy but less flexible. Buy 84hp prebuilt rail or buy the components for diy have similar costs.
  I see on modularsynthlab . com that offer all components for build rack. For case i'd like to build myself (some like a wood suitcase where i can insert also my neutron and model-d) also because suitcase modular are too expensive. The power adaptor that i choose is Eurorack Power KIT, Modular Synth Power KIT, MW RT65B - KIT 2 (1x PSU + 1x Power Socket + 2x Bus Board) and seem like a safe starting point.
  What you think about diy or buy and kind of issue i can find building case?

Thank to all for your answer, I am sailing in the open ocean on a nutshell :)

Glad you liked :)

Not a peep about Mutable Instruments Veils, or the countless other module companies with a quad vca clone LMAO!!!! This is just the newest one. People love to bash Behringer, meanwhile, they're killin it. You should go to their page and see what some of their customers have to say about their products. For some it's life changing being able to afford that gear. It's only people sitting in there studios with thousands of dollars of gear all paid for whining. These stuffy fools can't stand to see someone pay less money than them. "They're destroying the modular community!" Lower costs and quality products will only expand the modular community. But hey, feel free to disagree

Hi Wishbonebrewery,

Ha, ha, naughty you! Teasing me with techno ;-) Still lots of fun to be heard in this remix jam. That kind of ping pong sound you got there, reminds me a little bit of the classic Popcorn track ;-)

Thanks for the fun and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Farkas,

No worries about the trouble part, writing a review report is no trouble to me, that's what I want anyway. Every month I have to think of one or two more modules of which I shall write a review report. So I will write a review report of the A-103 anyway, you made me curious :-)

Ha, ha, thanks regarding the new setup. Just only today, being almost ready with cabling the new setup, I realised that I totally forgot to connect my Vermona DRM-1 to my mixer... and I don't have cables enough so I need to get some more cables before I can continue :-( I was hoping I was ready with the cabling... anyway, hopefully in August I am ready with my new setup.

Thank you and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Lugia,

+1 regarding the workflow, sounds totally logically and I need to check if it's worth the investment for a monitor controller, my new main monitors (KS Digital A100s) will be connected to my main switch, so using the main mixer in combination with the Mackies will be only for rare occasions where I want to check the sound on more than one monitor brand just to make sure it all sounds okay-ish (in case of finalising a recording).

I agree and like that motto of that Nashville engineer! Thank you very much for your help and feedback Lugia, kind regards, Garfield.

Hi All,

Does for nobody rings a bell which brand's modules came (or still comes) with a lollipop in the original box?

Thank you very much in advance and kind regards, Garfield.

Thanks everyone for the replies above!

Informed by those ideas, and in hopes of giving myself some further clarity on the issue, I'll try to summarize below what I presently see as the main use cases for multiple sequencers (note what follows are not strictly exclusive of one another):

1. more sequencing lanes & CV outputs: simple idea here, yes, but sometimes you just need more
2. running different instruments or instrument groups: the most standard instance of this would be percussion on one sequencer, pitched on another
3. complementary sequencer styles: for example, a "normal" sequencer vs. an acid specialty sequencer vs. a "euclidean" sequencer like Rene 2, etc. A good list of sequencers with style labels is at: https://doudoroff.com/sequencers/
4. derived sequencing: requires 2 or more sequence signals run through logic (e.g. AND modules, etc.) to output a derived signal. This hits on what @Lugia was indicating in his 1st post above. Tons of ways to do this, potential modules to involve, potential patching. In general, this gives a good way of getting some complexity and change in an output signal from two pretty basic input signals.
5. additive sequencing: not wholly distinct from other techniques mentioned here, but worth spelling out, this is adding gate signals to construct more general stepped CV signals, see https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/9928 for a very interesting detailed example
6. function-specific sequencing: an example of this would be like @Ronin1973 indicated, e.g. where one sequence chain is driving pitch CV and another is driving gate/trigger signals. The main premise here is, for a single instrument voice, there are multiple sequence inputs driving the score and realization
7. compound sequencing: sequencers feeding sequencers, as if SeqA outputs go to SeqB inputs, or SeqA outputs go to SeqA inputs (if it was capable of that kind of feedback). This is kind of a bottomless pit topic, and surely depends on the specs of the sequencers involved

Of course one or more of these use cases could be combined at any given time, if the modules support doing so.

[This post is edited to shorten... additional ideas / comments later.]

EDITED Jul 27th 2021, 19:22

:)

I think effectively for every other manufacturer modules are always 'original manufacturer' (unless you count the b-company)

apart from the b-company's intellijel quad vca clone, I think the only other brand where clones of 'in production' modules are available is mutable - there were a few pcb/panel sets going round a while back for 4ms SWN, but other than that I know of nothing

the purpose of the open-sourcing of the mutable modules was for educational purposes - ie how to design modules with SM32 mcus/2164 opamps etc etc - and so that anyone who wanted to build one themselves could - NOT so that micro versions could be cloned

reputedly a lot of the builds are decent quality - pachinko seems to be a decent implementation of marbles, if you desperately want to shave off 2hp or whatever...

as I said before the difference in price is in most cases not that much and the usual reduction in size can make the modules difficult (or unpleasant) to use in some cases - tightly packed jacks and trimmers, especially when next to other similar modules etc etc - if you buy a real one then Emilie actually gets paid

I had a button break on my marbles and had to send it back to mutable - fixed free of charge and back within a week (NL -> FR -> NL) - I have mostly factory built and a few DIY mutable modules - if I decide I need any more I will definitely buy them!

supercell looks like a good implementation of clouds though

EDITED Jul 25th 2021, 20:55

the 'by far the best' manufacturer of mutable instruments is - mutable - ergonomically sound and great support, plus the original designer gets the money not some guy(s) who took a github plan for a module and shrunk it - mi also have great support!

I'm not sure I follow ... does Mutable Instruments oppose or have an issue with the clone builds? I'd assume that me buying one of those isn't any different than me getting a DIY and paying someone with more experience to build it, and many of the clones seem to have additional features not including in the MI version and/or attempt to improve the aesthetics or UI. Does this practice negatively impact MI in some way? It seems so prevalent that I guess I just assumed MI made these designs open source by choice and had no problem with the existing market for its designs.

Beyond that, thanks for the recommendations so far, though I am curious for more answers regarding those who have used the clone-brands and the originals -- is there really a negative difference w/ the clones? Senior-bling mentions that the clones are less "fun," -- but what's that mean to you? Do you mean the smaller sizes just make the knobs harder to navigate and work with? You mention 3 clones you've used that were superior to the MI versions -- have you used others that are inferior? If so, why?

I'm not trying to nit-pick here, I tend to prefer to go "original manufacturer" myself when possible -- I'm just trying to understand the rationale, when the clone brands would seem, at a glance, to generally offer the same or better functionality for a lower price. (Good technical support is great and all, but not a big selling point for me personally). If those brands are ripping MI off in some way, or people have found they don't replicate the MI modules very well or work as good or flake out or something like that, that's one thing. But is that really the case? More input welcome.

EDITED Jul 25th 2021, 20:24

I have 2x ALM PipSlope and a WMS/SSF ADSRVCA, I find they are both great for different things, the PipSlope's Attack Decay isn't as good as the full ADSR if you want something chewy for a filter to get its teeth into.
If I need more I'll probably build a Befaco ADSR as it does pretty much the same as the Instruo Ceis but a touch cheaper.

@Lugia that was a very good suggestion! I need to digest what I currently am working on, but I may get one of my top row. Btw:

Its very odd, I actually do have 2HP left in the second row, even if MD says none....is that odd to you guys?

Also, thanks to this thread, I took all the placement advise and Im SO GLAD I did! Patching is super easy, clean and not to bunched up to move tiny nobs :) Also, the 1010bit box mk2 is no joke. I have an MPC in my rack basically, its way OP.

I do the same with my Rebach VCF-AB which can make some knarly acid lines but it whines on self-oscillating unless the VCA shuts it down after it.

I usually patch the VCA in the back as the zlob VCF filter can go pretty nuts in the self oscillation range and the vca helps to keep the things in terms! ✌️

I'd go with the original modules if at all possible for the reasons stated above. The only exceptions are Grayscale Supercell/Microcell or one of the Monsoon versions of Clouds and the Antumbra adaptation of Grids. These Clouds clones offer much better control over parameters and Grids is (IMO) about the only Mutable module which can be shrunk without compromising usability. I've tried micro versions of both Plaits and Elements and they simply offer only half the fun (or no fun at all in the case of Elements). Oh, and I do consider getting a Twiig (or whatever they're called) which is basically two Branches in the space of one. Looks alright to me.

I've not had a chance to play all MI modules so far, but of those I have/had I'd say every single one of them is actually really good. Ripples MK1 wasn't quite my thing but the others I've kept. Streams is the one closest to being a disappointment but I've got to try it in a few more scenarios. Frames is underrated and so is Warps. Braids might be my favourite oscillator. Rings, I love Rings (easter egg modes FTW). Elements is too large, really. Wish there was a way to shrink it sans sabotage. But every time I do one last patch to prove I don't need it, amazing sounds emerge. So it's still there. Plaits? Of course. Blades? No "bags of character" per se but all the more versatile, generally useful and not bland either. And on and on… They're all immensely popular for good reason.

EDITED Jul 25th 2021, 13:26

Really lovely track and great video quality. That is a really nicely framed and lit shot! New sub here

Somehow I knew that you would have the A-103. :) Don't worry about going to the trouble of writing up a report. It's inexpensive enough that I may just pick one up to experiment with.
Good luck with your new setup. I'm sure it will be a lot of fun once you get everything settled.

What Jim said if you happen to be able to afford proper Mutable instruments modules, buy them, as its a nice thing to do.
I'm particularly enjoying Marbles as the main control in my rack, feels like the glue you can hold a bunch of different parts together with :) (other MI modules I own are, Links, Kinks (On Jims Advice), and Veils). I own a Monsoon version of Clouds though.

Thanks as always Garfield for the kind words.
I've switched some plugs around now and its more of a dirty techno track now :)

the 'by far the best' manufacturer of mutable instruments is - mutable - ergonomically sound and great support, plus the original designer gets the money not some guy(s) who took a github plan for a module and shrunk it - mi also have great support!

black panels can be had for most of the mutable modules from various DIY stores

in the long run the cost savings are minimal for most modules and the space saved will be irrelevant once the case is full and you need to buy another anyway

I own Tides (both), Plaits, Marbles, Veils, Branches, Links, Kinks, Peaks, Streams from the factory and a couple each of veils, shelves, ripples and shades that I built and a few in the DIY backlog

I don't really have a favourite/least favourite - they all do what they are supposed to very well

EDITED Jul 25th 2021, 08:13

Though I agree that the setup (of what I suggested/wrote) has a high potential for confusion, since there is no risk of damage, then meanwhile using that and then take my time to consider what's the best solution for using which monitor controller shouldn't be a too bad idea?
-- GarfieldModular

Definitely, as long as there's no damage potential. My big concern about "confusion" actually has more to do with workflow than just being perplexed. When you have to add an extra step...also made of more incremental steps...to your workflow, you incrementally increase the potential for distraction from the task at hand. Or at least, that seems to happen more often than not. One of the things I picked up around Nashville was that the engineer always needs to be ready with the best yet most minimal "fix" for things, so that mindset's kinda ingrained into MY workflow. YMMV, of course...

Yeah! Second row = new rack. I had some trouble with the power brick that got lost somewhere sometime between Barcelona and Germany.

-- zuggamasta

I am glad to hear that it works now :-)

Thanks for the kind words Garfield. This is the most gear I've ever tried to orchestrate in a single recording, and the learning curve has been significant! The drums didn't record as loud as I intended and I rushed some of the transitions, but otherwise I'm pretty pleased with the outcome. Though unintentional I think you are right that there is a "Berlin School" kind of sound going on with the arpeggio line.

Cheers and thanks for listening!

Hi Wishbonebrewery,

Directly the beginning starts with some very nice and funny sounds, love that beginning of your jam!

The track on its own is one of the kind you never can have enough, it's great to listen at, nice and relaxing, yeah, keep on coming with stuff like that :-)

Thanks a lot for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Senor-Bling and Lugia,

Yes... I was afraid you were coming up with the idea of a monitor controller ;-) In that case I would rather consider for example a Mackie Big Knob Studio+, a bit more possibilities.

Though I agree that the setup (of what I suggested/wrote) has a high potential for confusion, since there is no risk of damage, then meanwhile using that and then take my time to consider what's the best solution for using which monitor controller shouldn't be a too bad idea?

Even though with a new studio setup, I am already running out of "table space", so if there is a good monitor controller in 19" rack format that you can recommend then please let me know :-)

What I do miss on most of the monitor controllers I have come across so far is the lack of sufficient XLR inputs and especially sufficient XLR outputs :-( Thank you very much in advance and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Gworn,

That's a beautifully composed track, wow! It sounds playful to me, yet relaxing, just perfect before going to sleep soon.

Your video is fun too, seeing your setup, you at work and once and a while something else, yes, that's quite nice too!

That sequence you got running there reminds me of some music I know but doesn't want to come to mind... the early Tangerine Dreams perhaps? :-) Yeah that might be it, actually, one of their early concerts, is it The Albuquerque Concert from Livemiles?

Thank you very much for sharing this with us and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Farkas,

Thank you. Well... I do have the A-103 so it is a possibility :-) It's just that I am still busy working on my new studio setup, so for the moment I can't test the module. I bought this module recently because there was a special offer however because of the new studio setup I had no time yet to test it at all. I don't mind to make a review report of it however I want to have played with it first before "creating or building" an opinion on it.

So how much time do you have? Could you wait till end of September or October with buying? If yes, then I don't mind to make a review report of the A-103, I am quite curious myself too :-) Thanks, you have a good weekend too! Kind regards, Garfield.

+1 on the "don't do it" tip. Even if there's no risk of damage, that's a setup that has a high potential for confusion. But there might be a fix...namely, this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BigKnobPass--mackie-big-knob-passive-2x2-studio-monitor-controller

This thing allows you to have two stereo inputs and two stereo outputs. The latter will be useful if you get a set of "tracking monitors" or "mix checks". But the dual input scheme fits perfectly here, AND it's more than likely that this is what Mackie intended this $70 widget for.

Been looking into getting Rings, Clouds, Tides, Beads, Grids, and Marbles, and a few of the others look interesting too. The clones obviously tend to be a lot cheaper (and fit my color scheme better) -- any recommended clone "brands" (CalSynth, Michigan Synth Works, etc.) or recommendations/favorites/disappointments, in this line? Anyone used the recent Blue Lantern Grids?

Thanks.

EDITED Jul 24th 2021, 22:46

I love Instruo Ceis . Its a vc-ASDR but also has trigger outputs for every stage of the envelope. 🤯
For ambient slow motion things i love XAOC ZADAR
-- mamonu

I was looking at that one very recently, bc I'm thinking about picking up another ADSR. Definitely appealing ... all of the Instruo stuff looks really cool, but they're so pricey, I worry it just won't be worth the extra $ for what it does.

I remember having that same issue w/ the SQ64. Wasn't a huge fan of that sequencer.

Aw, man ... I just did this big write-up with my thoughts on about 10 different sequencing modules I've owned or do own, and the cookie timed out while I was writing it and when I went to post, it evaporated. :(

The short version: I'm also new to modular, and yeah, having multiple sequencers is fun and useful. My favorite so far, especially in terms of bang-for-the-buck, is the Sequence 8 by Synthrotek. I got mine for $150 and it has per-step CV outputs, 3 independent CV sequence outputs with individual limiters/attenuators, random mode, trigger or gate, reset button & CV trigger ... it's great for its price. It also feels really solidly made and in my opinion looks cool, though it does take up a little space.

I've had a few small form factor sequencers, like 2HP and Erica Synths, and they're fine, but I find with sequencers I like having a little more visual feedback. I love my external Rucci 16-step sequencer. It's just a big brick with some sliders and a single CV output, not a ton to it, but I always enjoy using it. There's one on Reverb right now but it's a little overpriced in my opinion, I guess bc I got mine for like $120 or so straight from Rucci.

Also have a DFAM which is great, and had a Subharmonicon, but didn't care for that one.

Getting some multipliers, dividers, and/or sequential switches is also great, and maybe some S&H modules for random voltages.

Here's a recent rec of select portions of a recent patch session, just me playing around with some new modules. The Rucci is that little guy running on the bottom right. Had a Korg SQ64 which actually did a lot more, but I just didn't like it.

Thinking about getting a Nerdseq as a sort of master utility once I can afford one, anyone have experience with one of those?

Hi Nick. I can definitely recommend multiple sequencers. I have several different CV and gate sequencers.
I especially like to use the Acid Rain Switchblade to switch back and forth between a programmed melodic pitch sequence on the Winter Modular Eloquencer and the WMD Arpitecht while improvising live techno stuff. I also use a Low Gain Short Bus to combine gate patterns from multiple gate sequencers to "crossfade" between different drum patterns or add trigger bursts for rolls and that kind of thing. There are all sorts of cool tricks that I'm figuring out by combining and switching sequences.
Have fun and good luck.

Cheers :)

Hey @Ronin1973 thank you! Another strong voice for the plaits. I really like the module in VCV already, need to see what module I can get. Original Mutable Instruments or maybe I can finally put together a SMD build like knit by anatumbra.
Bitbox is nice but a little to high fidelity for my cause. If I need more sounds there is a big computer somewhere around.

Hi @GarfieldModular I enjoy the things I can do with modular a lot now. Still some things to figure out with the tesseract mixer but that should be sorted out soon. I really want to get a bit more control over pan and FX send/return.
Yeah! Second row = new rack. I had some trouble with the power brick that got lost somewhere sometime between Barcelona and Germany.

Great comments above! Thanks!!

One above that especially suites my direction is @Ronin1973's suggestion "Having separate trigger/clock sequencers and separate CV/pitch sequencers allows sequencing to be deconstructed into its elements. I use a Temps Utile running either a Euclidean, step, or logic functions to drive a Memitic Digitalus from Noise Engineering. There are trigger inputs on the MD that control step advance, reset, or even skipping around +-4 steps, or randomly." That "decoupling" of pitch and rhythm information is very appealing to me.

I'm running around this weekend but will need to give these comments further reflection soon.

In the meantime, can I invite some comments from @JimHowell1970, @troux, @GarfieldModular, @farkas and others? The folks I've named, I maybe recall seeing some older posts of yours on similar topics?

Any further ideas to add to the above, along the topic "what great can look like" with a multi-sequencer setup?

Much appreciated!!

Drums were a little quieter than I intended on the final recording...

Awesome, thanks for sharing!