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well I'd want more utilities - a matrix mixer would be a good start - and probably some attenuators....
seems far too sound source heavy... see my signature for hints...
patch ideas - work your way through the 'maths illustrated supplement', use the fx directly after the sound source and before filtering...
write a python script on that MBP - to generate random patches - if you search there's an example one floating about online... if you can read and do basic maths it'll be easy to adapt for your rack...
write some selection tables on a pad and use dice to generate patches...
mix outputs of sound sources, before doing anything else...
tune your sound sources to different intervals...
mix & modulate your modulation!
hope this helps!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
My theory is some modules (probably digital) have a spike in power usage when first booting up. During an initial "cold boot", not every digital module gets the surge of power it needs and it crashes during boot-up. The module is unresponsive and does not work at all in this case.
-- adamj
this is a 'known' feature of some electrical items... including modules... it's called 'inrush'
if it's only when plugged into certain places, I'd move it - possibly some busboards have limits...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I can see that its nice to have some portable gear, I don't consider my main case Portable cos its Blooming heavy but I'm working towards having a my Top Case and Percussion Case as being portable and easy to combine with a Beatstep Pro. This leaves my Main Case to be more Generative and experimental.
the original 6u case looks really portable to me...
I've had my mantis on planes, trains and buses many, many times with ease in the past...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I started being more cognizant of function overlap. No need to get a module, no matter how pretty it is, if all it does is perform the same function as a module I already own.
to a large extent this is true, especially of big shiny expensive modules... but functional overlap in utilities is handy... multiple vcas, mults, mixers, logic, clock dividers etc are extremely useful! especially once you've grown beyond a few voices... and are starting to look at multiple layers of control... not just controlling the shape, panning and sound of notes, but also controlling sections of 'songs' - bring in this voice for this section, add this effect for a bar every 4 bars...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
In the beginning we're understandably a bit voracious, but the more we add on the table, the more discriminating gourmet we become.
-- Sweelinck
Never more true words, I am definitley becoming a discriminating gourmet, I even feel like my module-buying is slowly coming to an end.... Shocking I know
-- wishbonebrewery
this is very true for most people - almost all new modules are combinations or extrapolations of existing modules, that to a large extent can be patched up from what you have (if you have the basic building blocks of synthesis in your rack and not just shiny expensive do it all modules) - there's the odd one that innovates massively, but they are very uncommon amd not necessarily that useful...
I'm definitely in a similar position regarding audio modules - there are a few things I would like to add in the future, but no real urgency... an extra oscillator (a duplicate of one I already have - to use as a 2 oscillator voice), a control surface (possibly a tnsm or a tetrapad/tete or similar) and then it's just a few relatively simple utilities... another matrix mixer, a vc polarizer, maybe a couple of submixers
the same can almost be said for video too... I know almost exactly what I want to be able to do, that I can't already do... but again no real rush... some/most/all of it is doable with modules that are either currently available, or (hopefully) will be soon... it's just having the spare cash (if you thought audio modular was expensive... take a look at analog video modular)... and I have no real need for HD - I kind of like the retro SD vibe...
I do like a bit of DIY though - so this may continue - unless/until my eye sight gets too bad... I do want to finish my backlog though... but all of that is smd (that I don't really like) and have been putting off for a long time...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Basically it's 10 3u frames in 5 rows. (2x 84hp wide and 15u height)
this way i can also fit 19"outboard or a 500 rack inside.
-- ak47exe
that's a decent size and layout!
What did change for you when you switched to a bigger setup?
longer cables & layout - see above... you may find that you want to use your current 6u 104hp case as a control skiff in front if the 15u is vertical - I find that I prefer sequencers, controllers, end of chain mixer etc are best horizontal and at the front
Do you work differently?
not really, more an extrapolation of what I was doing with a smaller case... more voices to patch (potentially) - use more utilities to make the most of modulation (multing, combining, inverting, attenuating etc) so less modulation sources can be used to modulate more modules... with related modulation... so things fit together better...
a bigger case also opens up different lavels of control... for example vcas are no longer just for modulation and note shaping... they are now also for gain control over time (ie autonated mixing) - which is i suppose a different way of working - still working on this
one thing I do have that's really useful in this size & bigger cases & with larger numbers of voices is a sinfonion... really handy for keeping things in key and supplying chordal notes on top of 3-4 'melodic/bass' voices - also really helps in terms of arrangement - as you can alter the octave ramge of voices...
also a bigger mixer is useful - I'm using a tesseract tex-mix - currently with 12 mono channels and 4 stereo channels
Do you work on patches for a longer time than in a small case?
probably - they take longer to patch - and take longer to finesse
Is it somehow harder or more easy to build a sound?
the same... there are just more modules to choose from...
Was it a good step or do you regret it it any way?
more choice is good... more voices are good... so a good step...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
it's not really a much bigger case than the one you already have... only 60hp more for 3u modules + a 1u row
is this in addition to the 6u 104hp case you already have or a replacement? as an addition it's fine - although I'd probably go for a 104hp case so they can be arranged better and not be ciffering widths, if it's a replacement, then there's not a lot of extra space to grow into - so the next case will be wanted/needed sooner rather than later
if 30u:
I really wouldn't want a monolithic 30u x 84hp rack...
I'd go wider and lower - I have, effectively, 18u * 188hp - made up of 4 cases (2 * 9u 104hp, 2 * 9u 84hp) so that the lower 2 are near horizontal and the upper 2 are near vertical... this is much easier to deal with than 30u straight up imo - so I'd halve it vertically and double the width to give 15u 168hp - it's also better for module arrangement - I kind of follow the arp 2600 layout & that works quite well
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
thanks! really clear!
just because I'm thinking to find another module....
what can be interesting to add to my setup?
I was thinking about the Turing machine module....
I like drones, I have Microcosm pedal connected and a delay
-- centecente
turing machines are great - but they need to be clocked and they need to be quantized, if you want to use them for pitch with other sequencers that are quantized... so it might mean that you need more than just one module - ie the module you want and the modules that are needed to support it...
if what you want is 'looped quantized stepped random voltages' for generating 'pseudo-random' melodies - then it might be worth looking at a Pams New (or Pro) Workout - they can both do that - amongst a lot of other things including clock functions (master, division, multiplication, euclidean), logic, gates, envelopes etc - the screen on the Pro is better from all accounts and it has a lot more functionality - it's a module you'll grow into, if you don't mind the menu diving (which isn't that bad really, quite shallow, but a bit tedious - iirc you can save and recall presets - so that may help)
I'd think carefully about what you are missing in your patches - ie I want to do this, but I can't because I don't have that functionality in my case... note these omissions down - and then prioritise them before searching for and ultimately buying new modules
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
should work fine... as long as the voltage is high enough and the signal is as long as you want it to be...
if the module's expecting a trigger/gate it's probably expecting a threshold to be reached to apply the accent and a drop below that threshold to stop applying the accent...
not sure how the velocity is done in the beatstep pro - I've never used it on mine - but I suspect that it just outputs a voltage based on the max output / the value of the velocity... and then turn off once the step is over... so effectively a gate at the level specified by the velocity value
shouldn't hurt anyway - give it a try!! - it's all just control voltage
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
"Hello everyone, in my Doepfer chain I have inserted the Delay 2hp module...but the Delay response I got didn't satisfy me, I struggle to obtain repeat effects...has this happened to you too? I think to replace with 2hp Verb"
delays usually require feedback to produce more than 1 repeat - try turning the feedback up or addressing it with CV...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
For an external sequencer, regardless of the size of your setup, BeatStep Pro is a great solution.
indeed it is! and it's a keeper - ie it's always useful no matter how big your rack gets to... currently I predominantly use mine for sequencing song part/chord progression changes on my sinfonion - clocked from the sinfonion...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
get a mantis - easily portable - I've travelled a lot with mine on planes (perfectly sized for hand lugggage), trains and buses and used to live on the 2nd floor (or 3rd if you're american) with no lift... and that's with just the standard tiptop case - there's a 3rd party briefcase that's more rugged if you're worried about it!
then you'll have plenty of space to add modules without sacrificing others - at least until the mantis is full!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
1 get a bigger case - small cases are very often a false economy... as you will end up buying another case within a few weeks or months... better to start off with that slightly bigger case - a tip top mantis is an excellend starter case and one of the best bangs for money in eurorack (hp/cost/manufacturer reputation/decent power)
these tiny cases are great for mission specific roles when you know what you are doing, but at the moment neither of these appply to you
how are you going to plqy this? are you expecting to play it via a keyboard or from a DAW? then you are missing the midi to cv module you need... only 1/2 the module is included in the case - you still need the cv output part... Pams includes some random sequence generation, amongst other things (rtfm), but it's likely that sooner or later and probably sooner you'll want to be able to create a sequence - and there's no space left in the case for that... NB there are external sequencers - maybe one of these would be a good idea...
in a case this small there's not really enough space for multiple voices - something will be missing... a filter for the dixie for example... stick to one voice and what's needed to support it rather than trying to do too much in too small a case...
again in a small case there is no space for overlap when not needed - the functionality of the EG can be covered by pams (again rtfm)
I would either just get a bigger case and start with a few modules - a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen - which in this case may just be Pams, plaits (you'll likely only get a clone - ALA for example), an effect mdoule and a headphone output: Pams covers (to some extent) the way to play and the modulation source, plaits is the sound source (including vca, filter and has some internal modulation based on the envelope sent into the level) etc
OR
ignore the size of the case for now - start with a 9u (or 10u, if you must have 1u) 104hp or bigger case in modulargrid and put the modules you really want in it (taking into account the functionality that you want - ie 2 voices) and try to work out the modules that you need to support those and then show us the result for critique - then buy a case that is appropriate for the modules and leaves 20%+ free for expansion so that you are not going to need to buy another case almost immediately when you see that module that you need a week after you've finished buying all the modules that you think you want and the modules that we've pointed out that you need in order to support them properly
and take a look at my signature... spend a decent amount of time thinking about it and how it applies to you and the modules you think you want...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Can you recommend a power supply for the Data? Building a case isn't a problem.
hmm... depends, really... I like the befaco power supplies - I have a lot of the excalibus ones (built are available, but they are a really easy, if tedious DIY build - 26 power headers with 16 pins each!!!) - they are really quiet in my experience and I use them for video as well as audio - which has a much higher need for quiet at much higher frequencies (MHz, not just KHz) but they're a bit big for a case just for a DATA - excalibus is meant for powering 6u/84hp... they do a smaller power supply too, but
much dirtier, but ok for audio I've used frequency central ones - they are small and cheap, but they need a deep case... also easy to DIY... if you DIY and source all the parts yourself from tayda it should work out at about 50 quid including the wall wart... no 5v though - and the power stats on here for the DATA look wrong compared to the mordax site - the FC power supplies really only supply 500mA - so 400mA or less in practice (I suspect DATA has some inrush needs)
otherwise maybe a uZeus... but they use the panel as a heatsink - and recommend metal rails to dissipate the heat - which the others don't need so you could get away with screwing any panels straight into the wood - I did this for a while before building my first DIY case - I had a really dodgy 9u held together by modules and blank panels - no rails, no sides, no back - literally just modules, blank panels and 4 bits of wood
The step8 is primarily used as a sequencer but since getting the Rene it hasn't been getting used so much but it's still used as more of a cv source than anything else.
OK I'd be tempted to use it as a second sequencer to transpose the rene (you'll need. that precision adder back in the case though)
TBH I never consider the rack to be lacking mixing capabilty other than fx sends etc
that's kind of what I suspected after I looked again at your rack and noticed that the erica output was also a mixer!
fx sends = matrix mixer... maybe a stereo one - I usually use my matrix mixers for combining modulation souorces to get more complex modulation sources though... which is one more reason to make that expander case a bit bigger than you think you need just for the
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I'm down for the tex mix but I'm not going to be buying a new case. What can I lose to make room for one?
-- padmasan
well that's a difficult one - I've only ever sold one module - because I really didn't like it and always added cases - I've built 4 cases myself - have you considered that??
tbh - I didn't notice the black output had mixing capabilities when I initially scanned your rack!
do you think you actually have a mixing problem?
I went back and re-read your first post...
what don't you like about your workflow? could it be solved with some longer patch cables?
have you tried both of the module arrangement strategies that I outlined in my first post?
have you tried taking all the modules out of the case putting a single voice in and working ou the best workflow for that, for you and then adding another and repeating etc etc
I'd move the mixer down and the squid salmple up one row, same with the shelves - maybe consider taking data out and into a small case on it's own... I know you said no to another case, but I'm just suggesting a 16-20hp satellite.... 5 bits of wood a few screws and a power supply - 50-60 quid... not another mantis!
that would allow you enough space to add back in some (or all - your little satellite case would need too be a little bit bigger) of the bottom row...
how are you using your step8 - as a sequencer or as a modulation source? I'd probably move this down too... same with Pams...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Can you recommend such a mixer? I have the Addac and Tritone in the spare row. Should these be incorporated.
I thought I was doing ok on the mixer front
well, there's ok and there's OK!!! hehehe
I use a tesseract modular tex-mix, which I like quite a lot - it's modular and expandable and has a decent range of features - all channels have panning, mutes, cue and effects send - mono channels also have vcas... it's also available both ready built and DIY (I like a bit of DIY & this DIY is easy - it's basically just the panel furniture) - you buy/build a master section (with the send/returns master out and headphone jack and groups of 4 channels, either mono or stereo, there are also direct output modules for connecting to your audio interface, for example... sends are mono/returns are stereo... but if you have a stereo channels module they can be patched to work in stereo (as the a send is only L & the B send is only R) - some people complain about a bit of bleed (which has never bothered me) but I have worked this out to be related to the sends, at least for me... muting a channel does not cut the send... this is a relatively inexpensive solution... it's just the one that I have and like working with, especially for the price! others to look at might be the befaco hexmix/hexpander, wmd performance mixer (if you can find one - may be a new version in the future from ammt) and the frap tools version (which is really a high end and high priced version of the tex-mix) never actually used any of these though - so can't really recommend any...
but saying that one of these probably doesn't replace any of your existing mixers, it'll just make how you use them different, they'll become sub- mixers...
good to see you've got a vcam - I don't have one but I do really like my matrix mixers!
I don't like having spare modules lieing about - I'd much rather have some blind panels in the cases - so I'd be buying another case about now and trying to work out how to join 3 mantises together... I'm sure there are some ideas in the mantis thread on modwiggler... this may actually help your issue too... some space between modules can help with workflow...
Not sure how the wife would feel about that and I can see the blinds being slowly replaced by modules.
well it's a good test of whether she's a keeper or not...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
And given the choice in excellent modules of about 4 to 8 HP I'm sure it will be a nice little companion for my synths in a few years or months. :)
I would also serioulsy consider larger modules than this - otherwise ergonomics will become an issue!
I've already orderd my next module: an envelope follower/gate.
I've got my eyes on a few sample & hold modules like the Doepfer A-118-2, Doepfer A-184-1 or the Erica Synths Pico LFO/S&H. I'll see what modules I'll want to/need connect to the S&H of my choosing.
Next might be an oscillator.
-- MeneerJansen
odd hp modules are a pita.... you end pu with gaps... personally I try to avoid abything less than 4hp and prefer bigger modules where possible... much easier to get at the knobs then!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
So I bought the Rides In The Storm 'SED' filter. At first I wanted the copy of the famous Moog modular filter from Behringer (the 904A) but it was sold out everywhere. And it's meant for the typical way that the Moog modular system of the late 60's works. Hmmmm. Module after module appeared not to work the way I thought/expected, so I went safe and bought 2 modules (EG and Filter) from the same manufacturer.
I'd grab a midi->cv module soonish - using v/oct for the cutoff is a classic technique...
I like the Dreadbox 'Eudemonia' 24 dB/oct filter too, but I read in it's manual that the CV needs to be operated at -5 V to +5 V (which is the standard for an LFO, not an envelope generator). The other input is labelled 1V/oct which I think is meant for keyboard tracking, not an envelope (the 'SED''s got both!). Getting into modular is hard if you ain't got no experience yet.
see above re: v/oct...
I'm not sure I'd have got into modular just to get a filter - there are 'pedals' that can do that - especially for the moog filter - a moogerfooger lpf would have done the job - expensive and only available on the used market in hardware form - but may have alleviated the modular bug/gas! also I think dreadbox make or made some standalone filters and then there's teh obvious sherman filter bank etc...
re the voltage mismatch: this is what offset modules are for - something like the happy nerding 3 * mia, for example - attenuate/attenuvert and offset... it's why we keep saying utilities are so important... (see signasture)
Anyway, I'm more than happy with the two. They have a ton of functionality, some of it a bit "under the hood". For many modules the manual ain't very good/informative. I might post my personals "how to" I wrote down in a text document on the two.
Gonna buy me an evelope follower with Gate functionality soon so I can use the filter with an audio siganl (like an auto-Wah).
-- MeneerJansen
envelope follower with gate is a good idea - always useful - you might want more envelopes then though!!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
ok why are the spare modules not in the case (other than obvious space issues)?
I generally follow the layout of an arp 2600, but with utilities spread all over.. where they make sense...
so sound sources (& any inputs), filters, modulation, effects, control, final output mixing...
start top left, finish bottom right... this works for me in my main audio cases... I basically have sound sources on the top row, modulation on the next row down (with some filters etc to the right), filters on the next row down, percussion next row (waveshapers, logic etc to right), sequencing to the left on 2 rows and on the right effects above end of chain mixer
another way to look at it is to group by voices... starting at the left with oscillators, but you generally still end up with sequencing (control) at bottom left and end of chain mixer at bottom right... if of course you have an end of chain mixer, which it doesn't look like
if you have the top mantis vertical and the bottom one horizontal I'd move the data to the top case... same with the squid salmple...
I don't like having spare modules lieing about - I'd much rather have some blind panels in the cases - so I'd be buying another case about now and trying to work out how to join 3 mantises together... I'm sure there are some ideas in the mantis thread on modwiggler... this may actually help your issue too... some space between modules can help with workflow...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
That's where the NCOM comes in @JimHowell1970 😆
-- troux
indeed, but a bit pricey for a basic clock divider for creating a sub - I have a dreadbox div - that works perfectly for -1 & -2 8ves & cost almost nothing... unfortunately discontinued...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I was reflecting on my NCOM answer and was thinking that this is where we're missing @Lugia nowadays. If he were here he'd be advising you to build your own low bass by mixing in multiple oscillators that are slighly detuned to get that super fat sound. He's got a post somewhere about this (or maybe a few) that I'll go try and dig up.
-- troux
yes that's how to get a 'phat' bass - mix slightly detuned oscillators together before filtering them... but it won't give you a sub bass - the easy way to that is a clock divider...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Thanks for the info. I'm reading as much as I can 'bout modular but stumble upon a standard problem every now and then.
Strange thing is that a lot of manuals of modules do not mention the voltages of CV in and/or out (the sometimes frowned upon Behringer does have excellent tables w/ all info you need for instance).
but almost definitely because it was copied from the original...
Is there an "unwritten law" or standard like 0 to 10 V for filter CV in if not otherwise specified? I mean: even if you have a utility module, don't you have to know the exact voltage specifications of the modules to patch 'm together via a utility module?
-- MeneerJansen
not really, the only things that are "standard" are dimensions and power... and even then...
reality is you don't, most of the time I want attenuated modulation anyway... less is more etc
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
yes, kind of... and kind of a common question... but...
you won't do any damage sending 10V into the eudemonia, what will happen is the envelope will be cut off at the top and the filter will never "close" properly
the solution is to use a negative offset of 5v... these are commonly found in attenuverters... or if you have it, maths - channel 2 or 3 have offsets built in - see the manual for which is 5v and which it 10v... other modules that also have this functionality (off the top of my head) are mutable shades and happy nerding 3 x mia...
this is why you NEED utility modules - they solve little problems that crop up all the time...
see my signature for a cheat sheet of how to get the most versatility from your modular for the least expense...
hope this helps!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Hi mate. As waveshaper I have picked the Joranalogue Audio Design Fold. Which mixer and filter can you recommend. End of chain will be a Midas Venice mixing desk.
The rythm sends midi clock to the beat step and the beat step sending clock to the Modul( Hope that is working like that)
-- Philekkk
well definitely an audio submixer - for combining the 2 vcos before hitting a filter - slightly detune one of them firat, & preferably a matrix mixer - add a nice quad lfo/envelope generator (zadar/batumi etc etc) to make the most of this for deriving complex modulations... but I'd also want at least one module like a happy nerding 3 x mia particularly for cv mixing/offset
I'd add a PNW (inexpensive used) or PPW to add clock divisions and a load of other features etc - will also help on the sync front - you might find you are better off with an expander for pams (to allow clocking from the rythm) and then clock the beatstep from Pams
I'd also add a simple clock divider as you can get square wave sub octaves out of it - /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve etc...
switches of all kinds are useful in live situations, as are 'scene controllers' - like Music Thing Modular Control
filters? I think they're very personal, and really you are only going to get recommendations of people's favourites (or whatever is trendy that week) - at least in terms of specific modules... personally I like Doepfer (for both utility modules and filters) as they are reasonably priced and do what they sau they do...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I've always liked veils - I only have OGs - no mk2s - I'd go for mk2s, or clones, over anything else now though... clean enough, dirty enough, enough extraneous features...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
the mini midi breakout module (only 2hp) has multiple i/o (3 of each iirc) so can be used by both the es9 and the disting simulatneously, you just need the right ribbon cables and the right midi adapters
otherwise you could make custom cables to connect midi cables to idc conndectors... but the module solution above is probably a lot easier and cheaper!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
the wmd modules may be difficult to source, they closed, but have re-started as ammt (I think that's correct), but I haven't seen any modules from the new company yet, I know the plan is to re-issue newer versions of some of the wmd modules
you should be able to pick them up used, but they may be expensive! or there may be a few left in stores!
you might want another filter, a waveshaper, a simple mixer, a clock divider, an end of chain mixer (with send/return) etc to get the most out of these modules...
how are you intending to mix the output of the modular and the analog rytm...
can the analog rytm be externally clocked?
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Question:
Do I need a module to amplify (gain) the audio from my synths if I want to input it into a Eurorack module (i.e. a filter)? The output of my Korg Monologue, for example, is as loud as the headphone out (I tested). How does headphone level volume compare to modular level?
the simple answer is try it and see, it won't break anything, but I suspect that you'll need an input amplifier... NB most of these (& the filters you are looking at) are mono
Off topic
I live near The Hague, in The Netherlands. In the eighties there were two very good and famous music stores here and they had a shop in the center of the city. They were Servaas and Rock Palace. The first closed shop in 1994 (wow! has it been that long? I'm getting F-ing elderly!) the second became Key Music a few years ago and is closed now. Like some of you said: when it became Key Music the personnel that studied or worked in the music biz disappeared and buffons who insult your intelligence were placed behind the counter. Modularsynthesizers.nl oficially resides at Lulofsstraat 55 in The Hague (they're not open to the public). I know where that is, never occured to me though.
There also was a very, very nice store in Rotterdam (not in the center though) that became Key Music and then went bust/disappeared. Went there a few times w/ public transportation to look around and bought stuff there. They had a big classic car in the middle of the store. If you know how to read Dutch (or if Google translate can make something readable out of it) then there's a saddning article of its downwfall after it became Key Music here. See picture below.
I'm afraid that nowadays we're bound to reviewers and sound snippets on Yuotube to "test" and "listen" to musical instruments.
it's a shame that synthesizers.nl has completely closed to the public... they would have been really handy for you!
The Hague to Amsterdam is not that bad a trip on the train, though... neither long or expensive... so a trip to MIDI Amsterdam shouldn't be out of the question - maybe give Tim a call before though, if you want to try out specific modules...
BTW
Luckily AJH Synth modules can be bought in "regular" web shops like Thomann etc. Second hand might still be an option, however: I fear that shipping from outside The Netherlands (even if it's in the EU) is gonna be so expensive that what I save is little. Some sources say I even have to pay VAT (which is a whopping 21% in Holland) if I buy second hand from Great Britan or the US. I might have a look around though in the Dutch synthesizer forum: they sell a lot of stuff 2nd hand there too.
I asked Bax Music about one of the modules that I like. They don't disclose their mail address on their website anymore (deal breaker for me) and I can see that they haven't read the mail, or replied to it, yet.
-- MeneerJansen
it's definitely a possibility that you'll get hit for any combination of import duty, VAT and handling charges, if you shop outside the EU... so stick to EU! and yeah not much point buying a used module if it's only 20€ less than buying it new, especially if you can get free shipping on the new module...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Just FYI, MIDI Amsterdam used to have a habit of listing items online as "in stock" even if they weren't. Don't know if they still do that, but I remember ordering one hard to find item that they had listed on their website as "in stock", I didn't receive a shipping notice after several days so I sent them an email to check on it. Two more days passed with no response so I canceled my order and bought it somewhere else. It was pretty clear at that point that they didn't actually have it in stock. I've heard of other people having similar experiences.
-- adaris
actually I don;t think I've ever bought anything off them online - only in store... always best to phone them...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I know what you mean... familiarity etc... but I can tell you from experience that MIDI Amsterdam, The Music House (Utrecht) and ModularSynthesizers.nl are all great to buy from both online and in the case of the first 2 in store - not sure about the music house, as they were threatening to get out of modular (check their website)... but they were great... having spent thousands between them...
the only issue I have with modularsynthesizers.nl (den hague) is that they want you to make an appointment, so I never went there...
If I'm not mistaken then a MiniMoog has sort of the same filter but it appears to, partly, thank it's wonderful sound due to a slightly overdriven input from the oscillator.
something like that - the architecture of a minimoog is iirc: 1-3 vcos -> a cp3 mixer (which has some gain) -> filter -> vca
if you want to get a cp3 like mixer then the AISynthesis Harmonic Mixer is the one I'd go for...
I'll do some research on buying second hand in Holland.
I'd extend to EU in general... on here we have a good marketplace & good and bad transactions threads on the forum (so you can to some extent verify sellers) and on modwiggler you have to have at least 100 posts to create a for sale thread - as I said use PayPal (but not friends and family) and you are insured anyway! but there should also be a local facebook buy/sell group (and if not a EU one) etc
Unfortunatly all physical music stores in the part of Holand where I lve have closed. And when they were still open I wasn't impressed by the people working there in the end. So listening to the mudule in question is almost out of the question.
if it was Key Music - I understand completely!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
I have a vague recollection that the intensity knob on a minimoog is what is normally called resonance on most filter modules... including modules that are modelled after moog filters...
I'm pretty sure that the nifty case does not include a vca... iirc it includes a very basic midi->cv functionality, a dual 1/8" -> 1/4" converter and a multiple (to make a copy of a signal)...
most envelope generators work best with gates... sustain (the S in ADSR) controls really only control the level of sustain not the lehgth - so need the gate to be held open to actually sustain
yes basically the intensity knob is an attenuator which controls the amount of the envelope is applied to the intensity (resonance)
almost always when you see an A in modular it's attenuation, even if the module calls itself an amplifier - VCAs for example - you need to read the module specifications as to how much gain is involved - most VCAs for example are unity gain, and as such are effectively voltage controlled attenuators...
you may or may not need an output module or attenuator to put between the output of the filter and the nifty case output... it really depends what you are sending it to... a lot of modernish mixers and audio interfaces can cope with modular levels - I often used to use a yamaha mg10 and could plug straight into it... if you experience clipping then you do, if you don't you don't!
you will almost definitely want to amplify the output from any other synth though... as this will be at line level which is considerably lower than modular level... and filters will expect modular levels and generally like to be driven a bit... again research, research, research - cheaper ones can be a bit on the noisy side... the doepfer a-119 for instance is known for it's grittiness to put it mildly... the befaco instrument interface is quite quiet... also available as DIY...
if you get an input module with an envelope follower built into it, both the modules I've mentioned do, you may be able to get away without midi-CV or an envelope module - just feed the envelope follower output into the resonance input of the filter...
I wouldn't recommend anything you've listed above though... none of them are really keepers...
I'd suggest doing more research (it's one of the major ways of not spending money in eurorack) to find the actual modules that you really want - this involves google and finding, for example, the best moog-like filter (it'll be a low pass ladder filter with 34db/oct iirc), then going to youtube and watching demos of different ones to work out which you like the best and then preferably going to an actual shop to demo one before you buy, or buying a used one (here and modwiggler are good for that) - don't just buy something because it's cheap - there are reasons why some modules are cheap... doepfer are reasonably inexpensive (only a little bit more expensive than the b-compnay) and they have a good reputation, unlike the b-company...
for example this module https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ajh-synth-minimod-transistor-ladder-filter is supposed to be a very good modular version of a minimoog filter - it may be available at thomann, but there are many other modular specialist stores in the EU & I'd buy one from them if possible, or get a used one... there's a list of modular stores in the EU (and worldwide) that stock eurorack modules and accessories in the stickies of the 1u and 3u subforum on modwiggler... you'll get much better service with any of these than with the bigger box shifters like thomann or musicstore... and prices are generally about the same...
if you buy used and then decide to sell it it may only cost you the postage (as you'll probably be able to sell it for a similar price to what you paid for it) - most modules will depreciate by 20-30% once they are out of the store, cheaper ones may be very difficult to resell for even 50%... same goes for cases... if you do buy used from a private seller on a website - make sure not to use friends and family (and take the small hit on cost)
I'm building my first Eurorack system as well, after some expience with semi-modular synths and VCV rack etc.
I was personally looking at the Fully Wired Electronics Transistor Ladder Filter https://www.modulargrid.net/e/fully-wired-electronics-transistor-ladder-filter. I could be making the completely wrong choice but I quite like the sound of it, with it being a ladder filter and all. Plus (Again I could be completely wrong) but it doesnt seem overly expenisive if I don't like it in the end. From what I've seen I assume it self-oscillates.
-- timeandspace
seems inexpensive - this in itself is not a good reason to buy it though... that you like the sound of it is, though!
the description states that it tracks v/oct - which might indicate that it self resonates. or might just mean that the cut-off frequency is calibrated to v/oct... I'd contact the manufacturer for clarification before buying, if I were you, if this is important to you
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
by that I mean - you only want to use 1 wall socket - as opposed to trying to find 2 spare scokets wherever you have dragged your rack to... so a power strip would also be a viable option... as it only uses 1 socket...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
But let me get this thing clear: are you using a kick sample as a trigger to clock ("clock in" input to module)? I could probably do something similar into Pams New Workout... Thanks again!
-- Matara
yes...
you'll probably need to mess with the volume of the audio channel or pams will not recognise it (about 30-49% works for me in logic using an es-8 for output)...
paste the kick sample (I got mine from the make noise site, not sure it's still there) at whatever frequency you need it for as long as you need it (I have it at 4ppqn, iirc, ie every 16th note) for 120 bars or so) and then save that as a template...
set pams to run at the same ppqn with external clock, I also set it to run/stop on receipt of clock...
works for me... should work for you!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this incredibly resourceful reply, and educate me on some badly overlooked basics! Truly, I've learned so many things from your message.
NP - hopefully this will be just as educational/useful!!!
something I should have mentioned earlier - I'm not convinced that polyphony or paraphony in modular is a particularly good use case - it tends to be very expensive compared to what can be achieved with a fixed architecture synth - and I think that modular really only gets interesting if you're creating complex or unusual patches that can't be achieved with a fixed architecture synth - saying that getting a poly synth that has good sine waves may be difficult and/or expensive...
I've reworked a (hopefully) improved setup here:
I'n mot convinced it's any better or worse, just different & I'm not convinced that you did a huge amount of homework before re-posting - 2 reasons for this - the time it took and that with a little bit of googling I found out that the uVCFs might have tuning problem - due to no temperature compensation - so they are likely to drift, even after initial stabilisation... as @Plieuwski suggests doepfer a-110-4s may be the answer... and are significantly cheaper than the uVCFs... at least here in the UK you can buy an a-110-4 and a doepfer filter for about the same price as an intellijel uVCF
(if you have the time and patience to check it out – I don't want to stretch it here.) In a nutshell (or rather, a 500€ case…):
there's the Mutant better MIDI input you suggested
good
just beneath it are an offset module and a Disting module (the idea is to be able to generate parrallel chords from a keyboard, which, come to think of it, is the main/only way I currently use "chords" in my practice). Disting seems nifty, but maybe something cheaper would work just as well for this application.
can you explain your intended use of the disting, with regards to this? as a second offset/precision adder? I'm not convinced! not to say that the disting isn't a useful module...
as for the offset - I wouldn't use it like this - I would tune the 'oscillators' to the correct intervals or use precision adders and precise voltages - but I almost definitely wouldn't play chords like this (see below) - I'd use the offset for shifting modulation... but see below!
plus I'd buy a better one - by that I mean multiple channels - happy nerding 3*mia, for example...
OSCs are now all resonance filters, which is a great, elegant solution, and I love it. I find I really love sines and at that point, don't care much about other waveforms in terms of timbre
you might not care about other waveforms now, but that doesn't mean you won't in the future, so the option of other waveforms is a bonus... plus see above re tuning stability... I'd go for the a-110-4s after doing a little more research on the subject myself!
there's the Intellijel quad cascading VCA/mixer, which should allow for a number of mixing uses?
yes but you'll undoubtedly need more mixing as well as vcas - they are fundamental synthesis building blocks... (see below)
then an apparently quite clear, clean multifilter
so paraphony only!!! for true polyphony you need a filter per voice... (see below)
a basic quad LFO
I'd want something more fully featured than this... batumi, which has multiple waveshapes etc!!!
I followed your perceptive advice and ditched the ring mod. Instead I guess I could FM the VCFs sines for instance?
standard practice for fm is to use another vco... so I'd want at least 2 oscillators per voice... for both fm or slight de-tuning (which makes them fatter)
then a MATHS module which seems to be so convenient for all sorts of operations (including VC envelope generation and many other fun things)
it's a good start - especially when the 'maths illustrated supplement' is worked through multiple times - thinking what, why, how... you'll almost definitely want to duplicate most of the functionality that it offers - so that you can use maths for more complex things
and a noise source which I suppose would come handy for all sorts of things
yes but again massively benefits if you have more mixers - mixing a small amount of noise into a voice or modulation is a good idea - you almost definitely do not need this to start with, though...
Your signature is truly a well of wisdom… not joking here. I think I'll post-it somewhere.
yeah - I should get some posters printed and sell them
Is there anything you would think is redundant? Sorely missing?
I don't think that there's anything particularly 'redundant' although I dislike that concept in modular - something's only redundant if you don't use it - and personally I don't think there's enough here for that to happen - if you want polyphony, or even paraphony, you'll need duplicates of modules...
saying that I don't think I'd buy the offset module just yet - channels 2 & 3 of maths will cover this for now - when you get into self patching maths to do interesting things and you find yourself reaching for more modulation/offset/attenuversion/mixing/logic then it's time to add those, until then I wouldn't bother...
stuff that's missing:
a mult - you'll need a way of copying the single v/oct signal from the sq-1 to multiple destinations - you'll probably want more of these in the future - and you may find that you need buffered mults - but passive will do for now (& this may be stackcables or headphone splitter) - I'd get one of these to start with
more mixers - just like they say "you can never have too many vcas", I think you can never have too many mixers... sub-mixers (for mixing wave forms and/or oscillators), matrix mixers (more complex modulation, send/return, feedback patching etc) and end of chain mixers are all incredibly useful...
I probably said this before - but I'd also add a multi-fx like an fx aid pro - it'll give you a lot of options - reverb and delay are really useful... personally I'd want at least delay and reverb - but you may have other ways of applying these!
I'm still thinking about the sequencing part of operations. I guess I could either use that cheap SQ1 with the parrallel chord thing (this covers most of my uses of chords really), or plug in a keyboard. For other, more 'experimental' play, maybe just use a square wave from one of the LFOs to trig something on MATHS for instance?
Then maybe invest in a more sophisticated sequencer when I feel the need for it.
this is definitely 1 area to keep thinking about...
experimental:
triggering maths will cycle the waveform - which could be used as a source of cv for pitch, with the addition of a quantizer... but it will be repetitive, up/down only - you might want to mix in a tiny bit of noise to this before quantizing...
for the parallel chord:
put in place a plan for order of purchase - don't buy everything at once...
buy a case (I like the mantis), a single voice and the sq1 and as much of the utilties as you can (at a minimum a mult and the vca) and a modulation source and a dual envelope generator (adsr if that's what you want)
for that single voice I would buy 2 a-110-4s and a doepfer filter - possibly the A-106-5 SEM or one of the ladder filters...have alisten to the filters on line - it'll give you an idea - search for comparisions of doepfer filters on youtube
I'd also be realy tempted to add in a trigger/gate delay especially if you can find a voltage controlled one - this will allow you to experiment with phasing by patching a slight delay into the triggering of one of the envelopes
this will allow you to "proof of concept" a voice before commiting to buying multiples... both in using multiple vcos for a voice (for both out of phase and detuned oscillators as well as some fm/am etc) and also experiment with sending an interval (the mix of 2 differently tuned oscillators) to a filter to see if you like the results...
you may find that you don't like some aspect of the voice and can easily change something out at this point before continuing...
once you are happy with the voice you have then add a second... this maybe just another filter, or it may be a filter and a couple of vcos and a mixer and another mult for example...
at this point you could then add in the midi -> cv module an/or a more complex multi-channel sequencer - the sq-1 can always be used as a modulation source, or for transposing the other sequencer, or for sequencing another voice (bassline/lead etc)
I'd build this up one voice at a time and I'd aim for 4 voices - why 4 and not 3? so you can go past basic 3 note triads - either by adding in a bass note or by extending the chord (7ths, 9ths etc) - personally I'd probably only use parallel chords for "power" chords - root and 5th and the root duplicated either above or below - or to do things with major/minor chords - for ambiguity - but I guess this really depends on what else is going on!!
my 'end game' here (for polyphony) would be 4 identical voices, each with a pair of vcos, a simple mixer (maybe more than 1 - I like ones based on the moog cp-1 - for example AISynthsis' Harmonic Mixer), a dual envelope generator, a trigger/gate delay, a filter and at least one vca channel (probably more like 4 per voice - vco, filter, modulation etc) and some shared modulation (including a matrix mixer)
things I'd also consider adding in would be more modulation, waveshapers & lpgs (towards a more west-coast ideology), a different bank of filters, some simple effects - patching effects in at different pounts in the path rather than just the end of chain can be intersting!
And lastly, would you have any good personal book recommendation to go through the basics of modular synthesis?
there's patch and tweak which is an actual book... it's good but in lots of ways it's a coffee table picture book...
the stickies at the top of the 1u&3u subforum on modwiggler are good...
for more advanced synthesis techniques the sound on sound magazine 'synth secrets' series - available online for free is dificult to beat.. but is very 'east coast' centric iirc - ie this is how you mimic this instrument with a synth - which I'm not that big a fan of tbh - but I did get at leasat half way through the series - iirc there's 50+ articles - when I read it...
there are also a number of threads about more advanced books both on synthesis in genersl and modular synthesis in particular (Allen Strange, Pelsea and X without Y, for example) in the 1u & 3u and modular synthesis general discussion subforums of modwiggler
again - hope this helps!! good luck - more questions? keep them coming...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
please mark your rack as public and post the url - fuzzy jpgs aren't that helpful to us helping you - no click through or mouse over - and with 11k+ modules available, no one knows all of them!!
but for starters:
sq-1: probably not the best sequencer for sequencing chords... only 1 note at a time... so no ability to go from a major chord to a minor chord, for example... don't just buy modules/things because they are cheap buy the modules you really want/need after extensive research and thinking about how you will actually use them in practice, otherwise you'll be swapping modules in and out until you do find the ones you want/need - which is a false economy - which leads me to...
oscillators: whilst these may seem like a great idea, I think you'll have issues with them... they are tiny and use trimmers and as such are probably not going to be great for precise tuning & having them next to each other will make them almost impossible to adjust when patched - so don't rack them next to each other! - remember that in eurorack 1hp is just 1/5" (5.08mm)...
a lot of people are shocked by how small modules are once they've actually seen them! also pay attention to module and case depth... not all modules fit in all cases - 2hp modules can be quite deep - as the pcbs are perpendicular to the panels - and can be quite fragile
whilst in general doepfer make some fantastic modules, especially their utilities and filters - their midi modules are best described as not great - if you need a midi module I'd go for something else, probably with more channels - if you want chords you'll probably want at least 4 channels - mutant brain might be a better option - & it has extra gate/trigger outputs so you can use midi clock for example, if you wish - but I'd seriously think about how you're going to sequence your modular - pick either midi or cv and then get a module that actually fulfills your needs (I don't think either of the options you've picked do!)
newbie question: if I don't plug in an external sequencer, do I need a clock? I worry about the sequencer being quite constraining on what I can do with this
it depends - do you want to have modulation etc that's in sync with the notes that are being played? the sq-1 is quite a basic sequencer... especially if you want to play chords! find one that's more advanced - preferably with enough channels to sequence all your voices independantly... I like the erica black sequencer... it has 4 channels and each channel has quantized pitch/gates/modulation, has an internal clock, each channel can run at a different division/multiplication, and a clock out for sending to other modules!
newbie question #2: do I miss some critical part of a functional system? A mixer, maybe? A second VCA? Also, not sure about how these 3 oscs all feed into the ADSR? (hence the mult. I don't know if that's how it's done.)
mixers are incredibly useful, you'll likely want a few of them - not just for audio, but also for combining modulation... same with vcas - useful for both audio and cv - again you'll probably want at least a few - I'd go for a quad cascading vca - such as a veils clone...
vco outs go to vca inputs - envelopes (ie an adsr) go to the cv inputs of the vca so they can open and close it - sounds like some further reading on the basics of modular synthesis is a good idea - the stickies at the top of the 1u & 3u subforum on modwiggler are a great place to start!!!
The oscs are all sines. I picked these because they're apparently quite pure, they sound great in the videos and are not too expensive, but they might not be ideal in terms of ergonomics/fine tuning and/or functionality?
if you replace might with WILL in the sentance above you will be correct!
buy vcos that are bigger, have proper knobs on them and not trimmers (especially for pitch - tuning!!) and preferably with more functionality - multiple waveforms are a good idea (options/verstiltiy), as are things like pwm... if you seriously want only very pure sines, you might find you are better off using resonant filters as sound sources - do more research!!!
there are plenty of good inexpensive(ish) vcos about... probably a bit more expensive than those 2hp ones, but not necessarily that much more! but you may end up wanting a simple mixer for each - so you can combine waveforms...
I've been thinking of replacing them with the Ensemble Osc from 4ms but I'm worried about it being a bit too ready to use/prescriptive. I like the idea of something more basic. Your thoughts will be apreciated.
ah the debate of 'modular synthesis' vs 'synthesis with modules'.... both are valid, as are all points in between... but to start I'd recommend more basic modules - making up a single voice and learning how to use that inside and out before adding more voices... at which point a module like the ensemble oscillator, might be a good option - make sure you understand how to sequence it properly - iirc you really want more than 1 sequencer channel - either to sequence root and chord type, or to send it multiple pitches to play at once - also I'm not convinced that it will do full polyphony - paraphony yes, but polyphony??? again do your research!
Chose this ring mod that apparently sounds quite clear. It might go to make room for something else. Any suggestion?
why a ring mod? doesn't fit with your pure/clean aesthetic... maybe a multi-function effect module would be better... fx aid pro (so you can see what you are adoing) would be my pick!
I'm very much into phasing tones, combination tones, Shepards. Any idea/tip about this?
phasing - as in the effect? get a phaser - the new doepfer one looks good
combining tones - mixer &/or cascading vca
shepard tones - I'm sure you can patch it but there's at least one module that has this built in expert sleepers general CV - which is a great and undervalued module... despite it's tiny screen!
Also, any tips about resonating filters? A second filter? Something else?
if you want polyphony rather than paraphony - you'll want a filter per oscillator (& possibly the same filter for each) - spend some time fiinding the one(s) you like... even if you only want paraphony, multiple filters will give you more choices/versatility, but they can come later...
I'd also recommend taking a look at my signature file & spending a fair amount of time thinking about what it says - the formula is a hint at (loosely) getting the most versatility from a modular synthesizer for the least expense...
I hope this has all been helpful...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
have you looked at the mutant brain (in rack version of cv.ocd) - was hexinverter, now being made by erica synths... it has the 4 cv/gate pairs you want + more gate outputs - so you can use a midi clock for syncing to the computer...
I use a kick sample on an audio track in logic, personally - this will always be 'tighter' than midi clock, due to Operating System priorities, but if you don't use any other software on the computer at the same time and disconnect from wifi etc then you should be fine
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
