Endless iterations
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Got it.
Hello chaps
Just a quick question about the ES-8: What's the round-trip USB audio latency like?
Okay...
I've reverted back to my original, original package based on an Intellijel 7U Performance case. Having more than one box defeats the purpose of this build, so the x2-Doepfer-cases (or similar) idea in not an option. It has to be small so as to be mobile.
The functionality of my Doepfer (
) system is mostly retained... mostly.
There are some compromises.
I reinstated my original, original first choice for a stereo filter - the MCFx2. It's all anal-log, is reasonably priced, is fairly compact, has built-in attenuverters and can be driven. The Rample does have filters so I figured I could live without the Ikarie for now.
The Monosynth idea is mostly still intact albeit without the Twin Wave II. I replaced it with a very basic noise module. This is a shame. I could I suppose, switch the MCFx2 for the Ikarie and loose the noise module, which would free up space for the Twin Wave.
I've gone for the Cockpit so as to give me volume control over the sub mixers within the system and a headphone socket. However, as with my Doepfer system (see link above), if I swapped the Cockpit for x3 Mosaic output modules, I could defer summing to a line level mixer or audio interface. This would save a little cash, give me more outputs and generally be more useful for my particular purposes.
This system is far more compact than the Deopfer one. The Intellijel case also has more than enough power - unlike the Doepfer - very baaaaad Deopfer. :-P
Speaking of anal-log - I'm going to the loo.
K byeeeeeee
Okay
Midi module is gone. Replaced with a mult for the Pam's for clock distro. This should in tern free up Pam's outputs for more creative applications I also dropped the Befaco IO - it was pointless given how this case will be integrated into my studio.
Unless people can point out any glaring issues or omissions, I think I'm there design wise.
Thoughts and/or optimisations anyone?
The total power output of the Doepfer P9 PSU3 Case is as follows:
Output + 12 V (mA): 2000
Output - 12 V (mA): 1200
Output 5 V (mA): 4000
The consumption of this system is: 2164 mA +12V | 1025 mA -12V | 0 mA 5V
Is that +12V rail going to be a problem?
anal-log sounds painful - I'd buy an analog mixer if I were you!!
sub-mixing and attenuation is really useful in the rack - so I'd get some if I were you!
stacked cables should always be kept to a minimum - by chaining them instead of stacking them!
whats the use case for the midi->cv module?
-- JimHowell1970I am anal-log! :-D
To answer your question: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the Keystep Pro's knobs only output midi. The Keystep has a usb midi output and thus I thought the little 2HP midi module was a no-brainer. It's cheap and cheerful and better than nothing. If this is not the case then I can drop the midi module.
I have a more general question for peeps: Is there a way to make CV outputs on the Keystep Pro accessible via Ableton Live?
-- rextable
re:keystep knobs - I'd read the manual - I suspect you'd want both more channels, and a midi->cv converter that works with midi cc - I suspect that the 2hp midi module only works with a single channel of pitch/gate... maybe have a look at the befaco midi thing... but note that midi is stepped 0-127 - whereas a truly analog rotary controller will be continuous within the specified range
the cv outputs should be duplicated in midi - again read the manual
-- JimHowell1970
I think you're right. It was an afterthought really. The encoders on the Keystep are just that - encoders - not smooth knobs. Oh well. That's one less module to worry about :-)
anal-log sounds painful - I'd buy an analog mixer if I were you!!
sub-mixing and attenuation is really useful in the rack - so I'd get some if I were you!
stacked cables should always be kept to a minimum - by chaining them instead of stacking them!
whats the use case for the midi->cv module?
-- JimHowell1970
I am anal-log! :-D
To answer your question: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the Keystep Pro's knobs only output midi. The Keystep has a usb midi output and thus I thought the little 2HP midi module was a no-brainer. It's cheap and cheerful and better than nothing. If this is not the case then I can drop the midi module.
I have a more general question for peeps: Is there a way to make CV outputs on the Keystep Pro accessible via Ableton Live?
Behold!
Three stereo channels of line level IO to feed: a percussion/sample playback channel (top left corner), a monosynth channel (top-right corner) and an audio processing/FX chain (middle row). Of course, it's a modular system so it could be patched any-which-way.
Main sequencer = Arturia Keystep Pro.
All Line level IO to be connected either to a small anal-log mixer or directly to an PC audio interface. Because of this, I figured having level control on the IO modules themselves was pointless. I chose a Befaco output module for the monomyth because.... Why not?
I'd like to keep stacked cables to a minimum, hence the multiple multiple/attenuator modules.
Thoughts welcome
Intellijel 7U case
Primary sequencer = Keystep Pro
2nd Pams is gone in favour of 4MS rotating clock divider, logic module and Dnipro DOT.
Swapped 2nd stereo filter and mixer out for mono ones to incorporate wave folding functionality and to save space.
Number of mults reduced.
Reverted back to Omsonic and Zlob VCA/mixer/panning combo. I still think this is an academic exercise as stock availability seems to be non existent as of writing this.
Stereo filter is retained due to its feature set (analog; stereo; multimode; drive circuit; CV controllable; large frequency knob; build quality; price point; availability in UK) being unavailable in less HP. Smaller digital designs with the same feature set do exist (eg Freak), but again, stock availability is a problem.
I don't know, man... 10 buffered mults? Two Pam's?
The folks that commented before are definitely pointing you in the right direction, especially for a case this size. Everyone is going to do this modular thing differently, for sure, but I can't imagine this is the best use of the limited space you are giving yourself. Are you planning on using the PNWs as your main sequencer, or do you have something external to sequence pitch more effectively?
I'm not a Maths disciple, but since you brought it up twice, it is excellent as Jim said for grasping and accessing the fundamentals of MODULAR synthesis. You may have years of experience with synthesis, but trying to cram all of the functionality of a fixed architecture synth into the small euro case you have selected is very difficult (impossible?), hence the Maths love. Need a mixer? Need a subharmonic generator? Need to attenuvert four different envelopes? Need a basic logic function? Need to create a weird shifting bouncing ball envelope? Maths... It doesn't have to be a complex signal chain. It just gives you all of the stuff you are ultimately going to need more than 10 buffered mults.
The PanMix is euro level. You probably won't need an external output module.
Have fun and good luck!-- farkas
Forget the mults - bloody hell :-D
Version 1.2
Mults are gone, Freak is gone, 8HP of space to grow into.
Erm, I'm confused. Either you miss-typed or I'm missing something. The PanMix IS Euro level? Surely that means I DO need a drop it down to line level before hitting external gear. No? That was the idea behind the PAnMix and Cockpit combo. My intention was to use the PanMix to for things that don't need to be panned hard left and right by default (eg Rample and Plaits) and then use the Cockpit as a stereo summing mixer for all the effects.
Assuming I'm right about the PanMix, really, between it, the Cockpit (plugged into the Intellijel case output and the additional Mosaic output, the routing options are very flexible.
For all conventional sequencing duties I have a Keystep Pro. I have a Keylab MkII for control and expression purposes. I also have a midi foot pedal by DataLooper that I plan to plug into the Intellijel case midi input. Had I mentioned that before this case might have made a little more sense haha :-)
The two PAms and the O_C are there solely to create and mess around with tempo-locked gates and pitch-quantised self-modulating modulation sources - many of which will be required bring this case to life. If you factor in the number of modules in this case that require clock and pitch and time locked CV and gates, my choice of modulation sources makes sense
... I reckon anyway :-)
BTW
Does anyone know whether the main L/R output on the PanMix is line level or Eurorack level? I'm hoping/expecting it to be Eurorack level so I can plug it into the Cockpit or Mosaic output module.
Re the mults:
Short version; I like mults. The end.
Long version; I really really really really reeeeeeally want to avoid stackable cables or any other cable-based means of multiplying where possible. I find them to be very messy and reckon they're just asking to get broken, or to break the things they're plugged into if knocked. No doubt, they'll still end up being used here and there.
In any event, I can always take the mults out to make space, but I can't add them in if my case is full.
Re the Pams and efficiency:
Agreed - inefficient... And somewhat fiddly in use. The same can be said for the O_C. But they are all there for good reason.
Maximum efficiency at this stage is not my aim. Packing in all the functionality I'm inspired to experiment with, is. Between the Keystep Pro, two Pams, O_C, Zadar and the various utils, I've pretty much got that covered. Logic, Euclidean rhythms, Turing machine stuff, quantization, complex envelopes etc. It's all in there somewhere and it fits in the case with room to spare. The only small-footprint multi-function module I'm aware of that comes anywhere close to the versatility and footprint of the Pams (other than the O_C) is the Disting EX. But the Disting in all its incarnations - unlike the O_C and Pams - is a module that I have not found inspiring.
From what I've read and seen in the intertubez, two Pams synced together equals a sum far greater than its parts. Together they can do more stuff that I wanna do than any other module combination in the same square-footage. I suppose, following that logic, I should swap them out for two more O_Cs (which are even more powerful). But intuition told me that would be unwise. As and when I've figured out my workflow; what functions I want more accessible and which ones not, I can purchase dedicated modules to cater for those needs.
This design has been settled upon after a great deal of thought and research. I have also considered availability of stock. For example, The ever-so-slightly-more compact panning VCA solution Lucia suggested in an earlier incarnation of this design uses modules that seem to be completely unavailable at the time of writing this. The PanMix is only 1HP larger and slightly less flexible. For this same reason I have also since removed the the Freak filter. I just can't find anywhere with any stock.
As a starting point for trying stuff out, this design covers everything I want - albeit in a convoluted way. The next step is to see how it works in the real world and go form there. In any event, Pams is an eternally popular module. I'm sure there will be no problems selling it on if I deem one of them unnecessary.
Re Maths:
.......... .............
Is this some weird running Earorack joke?
Seriously though, with decades of experience with synthesizers, audio processing and signal routing under my belt, I'm no stranger to creating complex modulated patches and signal chains. In other words, I'm somewhat past learning the fundamentals of synthesis. Thus Maths - in the context of this case layout and intended purpose - makes no sense to me. As a learning tool, what's here caters far better to the gaps in my knowledge and methods of composition I have yet to try. If and when I change this design or get a bigger case, sure - I'll get a Maths. :-)
Here endeth the essay
PS I have no idea why half of this post in in italics nor can I figure out how to fix it. Soz :-{
A Question about power:
Not since my design technology GCSE have I had to think about power requirements for things.
I'm unclear as to the power capabilities of the Intellijel 7U travel case this design is intended for. The specs for the case are:
Output + 12 V (mA): 3000
Output - 12 V (mA): 3000
The power requirements for this design are: 1998 mA +12V | 1046 mA -12V |
These two numbers are both lower the maximum stated "+" or "-" sides of the case PSU. However, I have a sneaking feeling that these two number added together cannot be higher than 3000. Is that right or am I miles off? Hopefully I'm wrong :-P
Also: the built-in bus board on the Intellijel case has 28 sockets. This design has 34 modules - all of which draw power according to their given Modular Grid specs. Assuming the built-in PSU has the capacity, is is possible to daisy-chain a handful of modules (the mults for example) to one socket on the bus board?
.... Oh and before anyone says anything: yeah- there's no Maths. Get over it
4th Iteration
optional and mostly-not-available alternate-colour front panels are gone. Doesn't look quite as pretty but.... whatevs.
I swapped a mult and an extraneous VCA for a Prap Tools distro module with some hitherto missing functionality. As well as multiply, it combines. Handy!
I swapped the CP3 mixer for another more flexible option. It can function as an effects send among other things. Its big and might be overkill. What to peeps think? The Nano mixer is designed for clean and transparent sound - quite the opposite to the CP3. However....
The bonkers looking thing next to the Nano mixer is my solution to the lack of a stereo filter for the 2nd bus. It's a stereo multimode filter with feedback delay and tube distortion. In the one Youtube demo I can find, it sounds really rathergood.com. What I'm concerned about is whether it's appropriate for this rig. Has anyone used or owned this module? How does the filter work? Can if function as a boring old HP/LP filter if needs be? Or is it all bonkers all the time?
Is there anything fundamental missing here?
shifty will not give you paraphony!!! it is a shift register - 1 cv and 1 gate in, for example, when the gate goes high and there are no notes in the system the note will be sent to output 1, when the gate goes high again the original note will be moved to output 2 and the new note (whatever is at the cv input) will be sent to output 1, when the gate goes high again the original note will be sent to output 3 etc
the last iteration looks better - I think it's a really good idea to ditch the paraphony at least in a 1st case - in order to reduce complexity - if you still want polyphony/paraphony then you may find a digital polyphonic keyboard works quite well alongside a modular
dtm (which you keep calling by it's old name before moog sued - cp3) is a mixer not a filter
I don't think it's a great idea to think in such rigid terms about what things do... rings has some great bass tones in it... and I'm sure those instruo modules can do some nice leads!
if you are going to use a keytep pro as your primary 'way to play' then you might find you don't need a midi->cv module...
I'd go slowly though and pick 4 or 5 of the modules that you think would play well together and get those to start with adn learn them inside out before getting anymore - you will probably change 30%+ of what you have here once you
-- JimHowell1970
Ha - I reread what I typed. I really did mean 'mixer' not 'filter.' I might be a bit daft but I'm not an irretrievable moron :-D
regarding the Shifty. I read somewhere (don't ask me where) that Shifty could be used as for voice allocation, which with judicious patching could be made to approximate paraphonic playing. However, following discussion with others I dropped the idea because it was just too much of a pain.
Yes - rigid thinking + modular = a bit pointless. My description for the last iteration was to give some context to my decisions on module choice for the benefit of others. As a starting point I think that's valid but am in complete agreement with you. The whole reason I started down this modular rabbit hole was to explore creative free form patching for idea generation. I reckon this system is heading in the right direction for that purpose. Its price tag - around £5000 - is pretty compelling in my view too. I think you'd struggle to replicate what's in this box with regular hardware for the same money and still have the flexibility/compactness. Correct me if I'm wrong on that :-P
4th iteration incoming :-)
I ditched the paraphonic analog synth idea and took your advice to leave space :-)
x2 intruo modules + CP3 filter + nano filter = voice for bass and general analog shizle
rings + Beads = modern digital voice and/or sound mangling.
DOT + Rample + Qmix = drums/percussion/stereo-sample-playback voice
top right corner (UPE, Zagrzeb and Cockpit modules) = master section connected directly to the Intellijel case's built in outputs.
Two further line level inputs and outputs along the top + Qmix = second bus for external FX loop or sub mix outs.
Morphogene = further sound mangling
Main sequencer will be an Arturia Keystep Pro
Everything from Pams all the way to Disting Mk4 = utilities and control
Right, have made considerable compromises for the sake of being able to play actual paraphonic chords actually on an actual keyboard (the whole reason those three Instrou oscs are there in the first place).
Rings was a good shout - thanks. I do prefer the sound of Elements but Rings will have to do. The version of Rings I've chosen - just so it'll all fit - looks like it might be somewhat of an ergonomic compromise compared to the original. Does anyone have any experience with this module?
If I give up on the paraphonic-chord-playing-on-a-keyboard-like-a-regular-hoomon idea, I could ditch the Shifty and one of the Instrou modules - which would free up a huuuge chasm of HP and make life far more simple. :-P
Oh to paraphony or not to paraphony...
On the upside, I did manage to fit in a Disting Mk4 which solves - among other things - the lack of basic effects.
I'm guessing you are intending to use the rample for percussion and then have 2 voices - the instruo oscs (as 1 voice) and the atom (which if it was me I would replace with a mutable rings - which would reduce the trimmers and improve ergonomics)
not sure I would want 3 identical oscillators either - I can see the point of 2, fat detuned bassline, but you could easily drop one and then fit in an effects unit such as fx aid xl (variety and ergonomics again!) whic would address your point 1
-- JimHowell1970
I want to play 3-tone paraphonic chords on a keyboard...... And as I type this I realise there's no way for me to allocate the notes. Bugger! I knew I had Intellijel's Shifty module in there for a reason. Where am I gonna fit that
Hmmmm, back to the drawing board.....
- Kinks is taking up a lot of space for the sake of a single min/max gate. If could magically combine the Divkid S+H module with Kinks I'd do it. Any ideas?
-- rextable
Are you really going to need four sample and hold circuits in a build this small? I would hold off on the DivKid S+H and just use the one in Kinks for now (if you can find a Kinks, that is).
Have fun and good luck!-- farkas
I really really really like S+H :-P
...... Not really.....
Fair point. I originally chose the Kinks as an approximate replacement for one of Lucia's suggestions.
Klawis Logica XT is 5hp and might restore parity, but it’s not a straight swap for anything. Basil Ikarie is stereo (and does a lot of cool things) but 8hp. knob.farm Hyrlo is 3x stereo or 6x mono in 4hp, but it won’t overdrive. No easy answers here.
-- plragde
Thanks for the suggestions - I'll investigate them :-)
Okay
Based on Lugia's suggestions I made this.
I reinstated some of the modules from my V1 (eg the DOT and Scales). Yeeees - I know their functions are duplicated elsewhere, but I really really really... really really want to have their specific functions easily to hand. Also it means that if for some reason I find myself without the Arturia Keystep, I still have CV and gate sequencers available.
I swapped out Lugia's suggested filter and oscillators for things that suit my own taste. Taking Lugia's lesson about 'multifunctionality' though, I was able to combine his wavefolder idea with the oscillator modules and at the same time shrink the footprint, thereby making room for a 3rd. I also added a CP3 style mixer. Groooovy!
I swapped many of Lugia's suggested modules with smaller ones with similar or identical functionality. I ditched the Intellijel FX and reinstated my proposed open-ended line level IO. On paper at least, this should function either an extra output bus or FX pedal board loop. I don't know why you guys were so against it haha. Am I missing something? :-P
I found a really cool little master mixer by Endorphin.es to replace the one suggested by Lugia. It connects directly to the Intellijel case's direct outputs on the back. I know the Endorphin.es mixer is totally different to Lugia's suggested one functionally speaking but I think the space gained has paid dividends.
My Concerns/niggles:
Now is that there is no basic dedicated effects on board. If I want a boring old delay or reverb I'll have to add it down stream or bring it in through the effects loop at the top.
The CP3 mixer and Nano filter are mono. If I could find solution that does a similar job in stereo, I'd have two fully fledged stereo buses - which would be far more flexible.
Kinks is taking up a lot of space for the sake of a single min/max gate. If could magically combine the Divkid S+H module with Kinks I'd do it. Any ideas?
The Omsonic panning mixer is the only uneven HP module so I've got 1 HP of space going to waste. Doh!!! :-P
Thoughts and advice most welcome please
Thanks
x
I don't own a Rample, but from the fact that the stereo sample support was added later, and there is no mention of pan (only level) in the manual, I'm guessing it's mono.
Lugia's rebuild, as usual, is ambitious and gives much food for thought. I always learn a lot from these, even for situations that I'm unlikely to find myself in. I will point out that the Klawis Twin Waves is digital, replacing the Nano Ona, which is analog, if that makes a difference (it may not).
-- plragde
I specifically chose the Nano oscillators because they were analog and have the characteristics I'm looking for for that part of the system. The two MI modules were to be my contemporary digital voice. However, I'm redesigning the entire thing now. :-P
Re the Rample mix output: I thought as much but thought I'd ask anyway.
BTW
Does anyone know if the 'mix' output on the Rample is mono or stereo?
Wow! Lugia, you put a lot of work into that post - thank you so much.
Ha! I thought that 1U module was just a misshapen PNG file
Regarding the IO: I'm confused .
The top right module is for the case's two back-panel outputs, correct? What about the two back-panel inputs? Also, the 2-in mixer in the top right corner: does that mix to line level? Wouldn't I need 6.35mm adaptors for the outside world, or am I being a derp?
My very first design actually utilised two of those send/return modules like you have here. However I took them out in favour of more open-ended functionality. My implementation of the extra IO could double as an extra mix bus or a stereo send/return or two mono, depending on my fancy - all without the need for adaptors.
From what I can surmise, your suggested system here is a waaaay, waaaaaaay more flexible - and as you rightly say 'multifunctional' - affair with a single stereo mix bus. Is that right? Regarding the 'multifunctional' modules. I was keen to not have too many of those. My thinking was "do less with more" hahaha.... :-P.
Seriously though, the rational for my first design was to have a stereo bus and a mono bus with 4 distinct sound generation workflows: a sampling pipeline, a stereo effects/processing pipeline, a stereo digital synth voice and a mono analog synth voice. Each module was placed where it was to do a specific thing relating to one or the other of my 'pipelines.' Quite a rigid and inefficient architecture I suppose. That was by design though. Is that a bad idea?
That said, I can see there is far more interoperability within your suggested system. You've suggested a lot of modules I haven't seen before. I clearly have a lot more reading and thinking to do. Right than, back to it. I'll post my next iteration soon
Thanks again
x
Greetings ModularGrid peoples
This is my first post here.
So, the setup below is my initial design for a more-or-less standalone ideas/fun factory. It will be installed into an Intellijel's 7U 104 Performance Case. Roughly, the top row is all IO and utilities. the 2nd row is all sampling and percussion sequencing. The 3rd row is two synth voices. All this will be to be sequenced an controlled by an Arturia Keystep Pro.
What I want this system to do:
Plan A (at this moment) is to integrate this design with my pedal board and studio via a mixer of some sort - I can't decide which one. Said mixer needs to have at least two aux sends, 8 inputs and very as small as possible. Any ideas peoples?
As for this design itself: I'd appreciate your thoughts and advice. I'm an old hand with synthesis in general but have never built a earorack system before.
My current thoughts are:
Advice would be much appreciated
Spanx
