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I heard that Catalyst were going to restart manufacture and add a few more modules - but when that will be is anyone's guess!
-- JimHowell1970

I spoke with Dave at Catalyst Audio. He is barely beginning production he told me. So its on. :)

Sorry for the lengthy reply in advance, but just wanted to respond to a few comments that I missed earlier.

You're getting a lot of advice, but you're the one who knows best what you want to do with your devices. Treat everything as potentially useful information rather than authority. And go slowly!
-- plragde

Of course. I'm just trying to get as much advice as possible so I can (hopefully) decide on a starter rack that is logical and help me on my journey.

Remember that OS 1.3 means your Digitakt can mix input from your modular, pan it dynamically, and apply its effects (and a similar Digitone update is considered likely). Both the Digitakt and the A&H can deal with Eurorack-level signals, but an output module is convenient.
-- plragde

Oh wow, I didn't know this! That's awesome. Out of curiosity - what would be the best way to do this without an output module? I've also got the A&H ZED60-FX mixer, so any recommendations there would be appreciated!

The A&H mixer has 2 headphone sockets - why not just use 1 of them for now? you can add a headphone output in the future if you find you need it!
-- JimHowell1970

I always thought that was the whole point of output modules in eurorack, but seems like I've been wrong about that. As I've asked @plagde - what's the best way to connect it to my mixer/headphones without an output module?

I like FX Aid XL will make a great addition
-- JimHowell1970

I think I'm definitely going to get one of these. After watching a few videos it looks absolutely amazing!

a disting (mk4 or ex) would be a great addition
-- JimHowell1970

I've been doing a bit more research and can see now why a lot of people recommend the Disting MK4 and uO_c modules for a small rack like this. I'm considering adding a uO_c to the rack for quantizing the Digitalis and experimenting with its other uses, then maybe get a Disting after, as it seems like it's a good option to "test" out other functions to help plan future expansion. Do you think this is a good idea? I thought the Marbles and PNW already could already do quantizing, so am I missing something when everyone says the MD needs a quantizer?

Also would having the Salmple, PNW, uO_c and Disting be too much menu diving? I'm trying to avoid this but from what I've seen it doesn't seem too bad. Ideally I'd prefer 1 knob per function but can live with a little menu diving.

Maths not required. If you want more plucky sounds you have a low pass gate built into plaits. From what I can see he likes using plaits to give chord drones. He is using md to drive the melody in the 0 coast.
-- greenfly

This is good to know, thank you. I'm thinking of getting a uO_c instead of the Maths and possibly a Disting MK4 after (as mentioned above). Assume this could open up a world of possibility and keep me busy in the meantime?

I want to underscore what Lugia said about MD needing a quantizer
-- plragde

Yeah this seems to be the general consensus. But as I've asked above in this response. Doesn't the Marbles and PNW act as a quantizer also? And I'm guessing the uO_c or Disting is the solution to this? Seems like the Ladik Q-040 is hard to come by, so maybe I'd be better off with the former as I could also use it for envelope generation, etc?

3xVCA, if you can get it, is a fine bridge to Veils 2020
-- plragde

Good to know! I can't seem to find one for sale. Would the ALM Tangle Quartet work as another solution? Or are there any other alternatives you could recommend?

Also I realised I didn't include any reference videos to the style of ambient that I'd like to make, so better late than never.

This is pretty much the exact style of ambient I am referring to. So Ideally I am trying to build a system that can do both styles of music like the original videos I posted, along with these ones. Am I on the right track with my current setup? I can't really see / am not familiar with the modules in the first video, so would like to know what recommendations everyone has with this in mind. Could the system Lugia proposed achieve this?

Thanks again to everyone for the super insightful and knowledgeable feedback. I will post a picture of my final starter rack once I've decided on my final shopping list in case anyone is interested. I feel like you all are invested in this journey with me now, ha :)

EDITED Oct 14th 2021, 02:05

That is very cool. It peels like the real thing. Very nice!

Reuploaded to fix the high frequency noise. Luckily I ran the delay output to its own track instead of blending them, so it was an easy fix.

One hour ambient modular self driving patch.

EDITED Oct 14th 2021, 22:15

Well, Ronin1973, I did look it up,before I posted

https://www.aviom.com/blog/balanced-vs-unbalanced/

But I might be wrong!

EDITED Oct 13th 2021, 22:37

So I’ve seen this question brought up through this thread 2 times through the years, but never saw it responded too.
May this feature exists but I’m just too dense to figure it out.

But is there a way to rotate a 3u tile 90 degrees to go into a 1u row?

Current Power is a Synthrotek Super Power Red

+12V @ 2A
-12V @ 500mA
+5V @ 1.5A

Hi Funbun,

Indeed, I finally managed to get to the Superbooth, this year is the first time for me. Sorry to let you know that I didn't check out the TBD module. I was, to be honest, more focussing on how can I use the AE modular synth together with my already existing Eurorack modular synth/system. Seems to be that's not too difficult, so I might indeed consider, for the (far) future, the AE modular synth as a kind of travel case system for me.

It's hard to believe how much synth you get for the money without sacrificing sound.

-- funbun

There you exactly hit the nail on its head. I was standing there at the AE booth and looking at their (I wasn't aware of that, I thought it would be their medium system or something) largest case and system they had and it was still rather small towards medium size and to me it looks like a lovely size to use it as a travelling case. So amazing how many modules their largest system can hold and how much you can do with it, seriously amazing indeed!

So instead of getting an Intellijel 7U case I am considering this now as well, difficult choice! :-) Kind regards, Garfield.

Hi Troux,

Ha, ha, thank you! :-) Yes, the beginning of indeed "electronic music" (thus not electronic) is indeed where "I come from", famous artists like Tangerine Dream, J.M. Jarre (early days), Kitaro, Vangelis, Klaus Schulze and the lot. So this patch was a lot of fun indeed. Thanks again and kind regards, Garfield.

Me: "Oh yay, AJH Synth Wave Swarm is on the way from Perfect Circuit"

FedEx: "There's a $@%! black hole just east of Pacoima, CA. Your expected delivery is never."

Me: : (

... sigh, a week after shipping, no progress, no updates. It's back to "pandemic usual" with the carriers.

EDITED Oct 13th 2021, 21:01

Cables are not balanced because it is low impedance, they're balanced because the audio signal and the inverted phase copy sent on the 2 live wires can be recombined in such a way to cancel out any noise that has been picked up on the cable!
-- JimHowell1970

Well, Jim, I'm trying to keep it light rather than making a 40 page treatise on balanced power. I think you have it backwards there. Low impedance cables have to be balanced. Balancing is used to mitigate the inherent short comings of low impedance signals (subjected to noise). The biggest ADVANTAGE of low impedance is minimal loss (relatively) of high frequencies that long runs of high impedance impart on the signal.

The idea is that the braided cable will be equally affected by an interference. The high and low signal are phase inverted. For example if you want to transmit a signal that at that instance is +3volts, a +3 volt signal will be sent on the positive and a -3 volt signal (inverted) will be sent on the negative. The absolute difference is 6V. Divide that by two and you get the original +3 volts.The same for the inverse -3 volts minus +3 volts equals -6 volts divided by 2 equals -3 volts.

When interference hits both the positive and negative leads it doesn't change the results. (+3volts +1 volt (noise)) - (-3volts +1 volt (noise))/2 still equals +3volts if you do the maths... no pun intended.

Cables are not balanced because it is low impedance, they're balanced because the audio signal and the inverted phase copy sent on the 2 live wires can be recombined in such a way to cancel out any noise that has been picked up on the cable!

If you want high resonance with a bass sound. This might come into play.

just use 2 filters in parallel - 1 for high resonance and 1 for more bass!

Outputs. When dealing with a multi-mode filter, how are the outputs structures. Some modules put all the filter types on separate output jacks and all filters are simultaneously available. Others use only one output and the user selects (usually on a switch) which filter feeds the output.

and often somewhere in between - see Doepfer Wasp and SEM filters, for example!

Input (levels). Some filters have input level controls. How hard your signal hits the filter can alter the sound significantly. So an input level control might allow you to adjust things to your taste.

always a good thing - but an amplifier module (or a vca that actually amplifies instead of attenuating) in front will also do the job

Modulation. This can range from simple CV control over the cut-off point or you can get into modules with multiple controls including the afore mentioned FM control (linear and exponential), 1/V Octave tracking, CV over resonance, and even some exotic controls like ping, mix levels, even control over filter type.

-- Ronin1973

more modulation is always good!

I always just do this in my head - picking the modules I don't own - as they are fewer and farther between...

I do round up/down to the nearest 50 for simplicities sake

I sometimes forget that others aren't so good at mental arithmetic

There are multiple types of filter circuits. But I want to talk about the format of the filters.

Here are some of the major configurations.

Can the filter self-oscillate? By turning up the resonance does the filter begin to generate its own sign wave? Some do and some don't.

Does the filter bass compensate for higher resonance levels. You'll find with a lot of filters, you lose low end as the resonance goes up. This isn't a good or bad thing. But just the nature of the beast. If you want high resonance with a bass sound. This might come into play.

Outputs. When dealing with a multi-mode filter, how are the outputs structures. Some modules put all the filter types on separate output jacks and all filters are simultaneously available. Others use only one output and the user selects (usually on a switch) which filter feeds the output.

Input (levels). Some filters have input level controls. How hard your signal hits the filter can alter the sound significantly. So an input level control might allow you to adjust things to your taste.

Modulation. This can range from simple CV control over the cut-off point or you can get into modules with multiple controls including the afore mentioned FM control (linear and exponential), 1/V Octave tracking, CV over resonance, and even some exotic controls like ping, mix levels, even control over filter type.

Balanced signals always have 3 leads. Balanced signals on XLR cables are pretty simple. XLR cables can carry balanced mic or line level signals. It's "balanced" as it's a low impedance signal that's great for longer distances. But it gets around the additional interference by being able to mathematically subtract out any external interference at the receiving end.

On 1/4" cable, it'll use TIP-RING-SLEEVE cables (three leads). Your typical guitar or unbalanced 1/4" only has two leads (tip-sleeve). You might also know the tip-ring-sleeve set-up as "stereo". But I'm avoiding using that description as it just conflates unbalanced stereo signals with balanced mono signals... even though they are ran over the same connectors. (please double check your cables for impedance if you're running balance signals over them. You don't want to use a high impedance three conductor cable, especially over a longer length of cable.

Most prosumer mixers and other gear will have balanced connections on 1/4" jacks in order to save space and cost.

So yes, to run balanced audio between two devices, you need to start with 3 leads and END with 3 leads at its destination... and of course, both send and receive have to have balanced outputs and inputs. Check the manual.

well i cant figure out how to set it up (patch it to work)with the doepfer clock divider?
-- Broken-Form

I've got this derived-square patch working on my system right now. Here's how I'm doing it:
1. square wave from any OSC patched to input of A160-2
2. take an output from A160-2: that's the result. Note this is POSITIVE voltage only.
3. apply a bit of offset (negative voltage) using a utility. I have ShadesV2 doing this. SISM would work fine, lots of others would work fine.

I'm getting a square wave at 1/2 rate. Varying settings on A160-2 gives me different pulse width on the output. Both audio and oscilloscope are showing me this works on my end. Note the result is just a lower version of the original square wave.

Of course, assuming you want to mix the original and the derived square, you'll need a copy (mult) of the original.

EDITED Oct 13th 2021, 19:11

Great techniques discussed here.

I use a Blue Lantern Modular Subharmonic Generator to achieve this and have had great results. This module outputs a copy of the original harmonic and 3 lower harmonics and can also act as a clock divider. I usually use the triangle or pulse wave out from the Rat King Modular Tone VCO and pass the subharmonic generator's output into it's out filter and LPG/VCA. I use Maths to supply the envelopes for both the master VCO and the SH voice, giving me the option to create alternative envelopes for the subharmonic's VCA and filter.

Thanks @TumeniKnobs. Totally agreed on the Rev2. I love that thing. On this track, I combined a Rev2 pad with the VC340 voices and strings, and then faded in a split signal going through an external effects pedal chain.
As far as sections and transitions, that's definitely the "work in progress" part of this track and my project as a whole. I'm just experimenting with a bunch of raw semi-unrelated parts and seeing how I can fit them together like a jigsaw puzzle. In the end, I hope to make all of the transitions more natural. I'm used to one-track, one-take improv stuff, so it will be fun to practice mixing techniques and EQing the finished collage of multiple tracks.
Good luck with your project!

As a fan of Erica Synths modules, I can vouch for how awesome their filters are since having both their black polivoks and dual vcf filters. I love making them self oscillate and screech plus they can be modulated easily. Filters are one part of the variety and joy of modular besides sequencers for me.

I totally dig it! That was a really good listen. Going to play it again. I love the pads from the Rev 2 - I really do love mine.

My recent long piece was a good experiment in the long form, but it still doesn't approach where I want to go. This is closer. As you say, this is in the Tangerine Dream/Schulze style. I am struggling to conceptualize multiple separate sections that all marry into one long form, but maybe I am overthinking the transition requirements. Cheers!

Great - thx for maintaining this.

Ralf asked for patience when I ordered because they needed time to made an update to the final version. https://www.instagram.com/p/CU9L9Q9o__p/

EDITED Oct 13th 2021, 14:21

I want to underscore what Lugia said about MD needing a quantizer, if you want to play notes in tune (not needed for triggering samples or percussive sounds). The Ladik Q-040 isn't available right now, and Ladik may not ship to Australia anyway. Honestly, I would wait on MD, and see what you can do without it at first. It shouldn't have supply issues if you want it later (famous last words...).

Maths isn't needed but some sort of envelope generator would be nice, since Pam's is limited in that respect. There are lots of possibilities.

3xVCA, if you can get it, is a fine bridge to Veils 2020, and will still be useful afterwards. I don't think any of the Veils clones or modules inspired by Veils (e.g. Intellijel Quad VCA) have the same four-slider interface as Veils 2020, but I could be wrong.

Thanks navicore for the update. It looked 18hp but the RS site mentions 20hp, that's why I changed it to 20. Now it is 18hp again.

Thanks so much, @troux and @mowse. I appreciate the support!

well i cant figure out how to set it up (patch it to work)with the doepfer clock divider?

Maths not required. If you want more plucky sounds you have a low pass gate built into plaits. From what I can see he likes using plaits to give chord drones. He is using md to drive the melody in the 0 coast. He is using the veils as a mixer. If you want the veils sound, get a clone there are plenty available. Just type in veils clone

Hi team,

I am building my modular synth and as I do own some of the modules in the "final rack", the Price that is shown is for the overall rack.
Is there a possibility to tag modules that the user owns, to tick them out of the general "Price" field, so we can see the ""Remaining Price/cost" of the other modules.
Visual enhancement, somehow with a click on the "remaining price" field, it will gray out the already-owned module and leave the rest be shown in as they are.
This surely will help manage building system with the end-goal.

Looking forward to hear your input (=

The A&H mixer has 2 headphone sockets - why not just use 1 of them for now? you can add a headphone output in the future if you find you need it! but it is totally unnecessary right now, so I would skip the listen module, unless the a&h mixer is in one room and you intend to use the modular in another room

it will absolutely be enough to get going with and learn with...

Maths is great - as mentioned previously...

Stages is also a great option - I have both - in a case this size you will probably find yourself wanting both - and probably a matrix mixer and a load of stackcables to provide adequate modulation - as you have pams though and could use this for some heavily synced modulation I would recommend getting Maths and a matrix mixer before adding another modulation source ie Stages

Rings and Beads or Rings and another effects module - I like FX Aid XL will make a great addition in the (near) future - but I would wait amd play with what you have and work out what you are missing - it might not be what you think it is...

a disting (mk4 or ex) would be a great addition as you can audition lots of different types of module - especially useful for filling occasional gaps! but don't try to over learn it if you buy one - set up favourites and concentrate on just a few algorithms

4ms Ensemble Oscilator

Another update:

Have added in the 2HP mult, trim, Kinks and replaced the Veils with the MIA 3x VCA (while waiting for Veils to come back in-stock).

Would this be enough to get me started? And would the 3x VCA serve as a temporary replacement for Veils in the interim? I am also tempted to add something like a Rings + Beads (or alternatives?) to compliment the Plaits with more ambient stuff.

Happy to take suggestions to rearrange the rack for best use cases, along with maybe another utility module that can keep me busy for the next few months. Have added Maths as a placeholder, so would love to know whether this is enough to get me going? Someone else recommended MI Stages, but I really don't know!

I would get the modules from the videos and then follow his patches one by one for his voices. He did a patch from scratch one time
-- greenfly

That's the plan! Only thing is I can't seem to find the Veils in stock anywhere, most are on pre-order until December at this stage :(

Will try find one second hand, but are there any alternative solutions for the interim?

Also little update on my progress: I've managed to buy the Plaits and PNW online and have found another store that stocks all the other modules in my original post (minus the Veils). Would the 4MS Listen 1/4 also be a good replacement for the Intellijel Outs? I do plan to use this with headphones mostly, but have a A&H ZED60-10FX mixer I can run it through to listen on my monitors too.

A friend of mine also has a 2HP mult and trim, along with a Kinks that I can borrow. Would this be enough to get me started for now, or is there another utility module (maybe from Lugia's build) that I can add which will keep me busy while learning?

Edit: Typo in mixer name.

EDITED Oct 14th 2021, 02:07

Okay, after thinking about it for a bit, I realized that the MV doesn't have attenurandomizers or a built-in reverb. I just might want that.

I have this from Ralf, ordered from RS site, arrived late last week - 18hp. Installing it now. Definitely positively 18hp.

In other words, the "fat sub" issue is maybe coming from your instrument, or maybe it is your speaker/room setup? Getting a good sub from your instrument really should not be problematic. The "fattest" subs are often primarily a sub sine, or sub triangle.
-- nickgreenberg

Very true. My actual fave subbass patch has actually caused physical damage...mind you, it was feeding into a 20 kW array of bassbins, which might have something to do with that. But what did I create this astonishing, pounding, tactile bass with, you ask?

A Casio CZ101.

Which pretty much proves another salient point: modular isn't always the right answer!

If you had mentioned the Sarah Belle Reid video as a motivation in your first post, the responses might have been different.
-- plragde

Ah, yes...I've seen that Sarah Belle Reid piece too. Had to turn it off as I personally don't like hurling projectiles at my TV. That gets expensive after a while.

One salient point to keep in mind here is that she has a very tight relationship with PC. And PC is in the business of selling hardware. Make of that little revelation what you will (I know what I make of it!).

I would get the modules from the videos and then follow his patches one by one for his voices. He did a patch from scratch one time

Great headphone listening, loving the pads and evolving melodies, nice insight about peeling back the layers... sometimes easy to forget on a modular!

Nice Lugia! Yeah I am finding the advice to buy support modules very helpful. I really only need a couple of oscillators and filters to generate cool tracks with the features of utility modules like matrix mixers, logic modules, and sequential switches! Which is great because it saves me cash as support modules are usually way less expensive than say a complex oscillator for instance.

Nice work as always @mowse, your production and sound design skills are excellent. Put some of this up on bandcamp so I can buy it!

Loving this @farkas, gonna relisten with headphones later... more please!

If you had mentioned the Sarah Belle Reid video as a motivation in your first post, the responses might have been different. Along those lines, context on what other synths, grooveboxes, samplers, or keyboards you have owned or own now, what if anything you plan to use alongside Eurorack, and more than one word ("ambient") about what you hope to achieve would also help.

I watched the video, and while she makes some good points, others are contradictory. She's right to say start small and slowly, but she conflates starting with a few modules and using a small case. She is doing that for performance, but she's probably not performing with just what you see. There is probably more extensive sequencing, drum machines, effects pedals, a mixer, and so on. More importantly, she knows a lot about what she is doing, and is not a beginner.

She says 2-3 sound sources... in 84hp. That's half the rack, leaving not much other space for other things. She has two Functions because Maths wouldn't fit. Maths is two Functions plus more, so all of them together unbalance your rack. Even Maths alone is rather wide. There are smaller alternatives, like the Cosmotronic Delta-V, or Quadrax. (There are also smaller clones of the Mutable Instruments modules, but ergonomics are an issue.)

She is also using an 0-ctrl, and you said nothing about external sequencing. That's why she chose Shifty, to mix up the sequence coming in, but it doesn't really make sense for your rack by itself. Marbles can generate random sequences, Plaits is a sound source, Ikarie both a sound source and sound shaper, Veils a good quad VCA and mixer. That leaves you some space, and you should think about how to use it. I don't think it's impossible to put together 104hp that will sound good. But you might find it limiting and give up, or decide to get a bigger case. If the second, the smaller case can still be useful to you, or you can sell it.

As for semi-modular, at the risk of muddying the waters further, I will mention something I was considering before I went full Eurorack: the Pittsburgh Modular SV-1b Blackbox, and a Korg SQ-1 (or a small keyboard that puts out CV) for about $800 total.

well it's definitely an option...
personally I think that if you want a modular you are better just going straight to modular...
starting small is a very, very good idea - but that doesn't mean that the case has to reflect that - a slightly bigger case is always going to beat a tiny case economically - and experience points towards the fact that modular is fun and more modules are more fun - there's a reason they call it eurocrack!
saying that there are no wrong paths - just some are more expensive than others - buying used in particular will save money but only because if you realise that you are on the wrong path you'll have lost less if you come to sell it.. not that I've ever sold any modules - I just accumulate - that module that wasn't working for me 6 months ago does now as I have xyz module to plug into it, etc

Thanks y'all for your advices.
The truth is that I am still quite lost / overwhelmed by the amount of information in the form of videos, reviews, articles and stuff like that. I know that these questions tend to be quite recurrent, and the most forum veterans, they will be tired of answering.

I chose a 104HP system, thanks to a Perfect Circuit video where Sarah Relaid recommended starting with a small system, and I started with that idea in mind. As you mention, in the long run, the investment of money will be much higher due to the lack of space and the poor decision of the modules acquired.

In the current scenario, and given my little experience, I consider the following:
Start with a semi-modular system where the options I was considering are,
Make Noise O-Coast / O-Ctrl - Mother32 / DFAM / Subharmonicon.

Other options are, as Lugia suggests, is to get a B2600 and gain experience, to later, and with better knowledge, move to a really coherent Eurorack system in terms of modules and orientation of the sound that I'm looking for.

Do you think that is a good option start with a semi-modular system?

Thanks again!

EDITED Oct 12th 2021, 16:57

Digging this one a lot @GarfieldModular, feels a bit like time traveling to the beginning of electronic music, really well done.

@Broken-Form, what is the problem you're having? Can you describe the patch setup you're using and what's not meeting your intentions?

I can tell you from experience on this end, my own "fat sub quest" took me on a runaround for YEARS. After a lot of buying stuff I thought would help and it didn't, I'm now pretty convinced my studio room is incapable of good bass performance (between 20-100hz); a credible studio acoustics shop confirmed my room issues, and quoted me about $9k of custom treatments to start to handle the problems. I will be making that investment at some point but don't have the $s now. The good news is I have some headphones that give me a pretty satisfying bass experience (Blue Microphones Mix Fi); yes it's not ideal to do all soundwork on headphones, but these phones give me the artistic / visceral relation to bass when I'm looking for that... IMO they are the 2nd best thing to being in a great room with great speakers. I do most of my work on my nice studio monitors, and when doing critical bass work I switch monitoring as I know there are still bass problems in my room setup.

In other words, the "fat sub" issue is maybe coming from your instrument, or maybe it is your speaker/room setup? Getting a good sub from your instrument really should not be problematic. The "fattest" subs are often primarily a sub sine, or sub triangle.

Last, I should point out, the Novation Bass Station is actually brilliant at low end duties. Not Eurorack, but a very worthy (and cheap!) piece of kit.

Anyways, yes let us know what isn't working on your end and hopefully one of us can suggest a good fix.

Hi, designer of "dust of time" here. It has a VCA built in, so you can use one of the 4 internal envelopes to control the output level. you also have 2 aux outs which can be connected to any of the internal modulators if you need extras. New firmware on github has randotron and other goodies.

I am so up for this.

I would also go with Plaits or the Erica Pico Synths Modules

EDITED Oct 12th 2021, 21:49

and the inevitable second case etc etc
-- JimHowell1970

lol...i remember saying the Rackbrute 6U was where I would end...now my Rackbrute 3U will be on the way soon.

-- jb61264

I know the feeling... I thought I'd be done with a 6u/72hp case, then I wanted Maths - so bought a mantis, then I discovered video synthesis and DIY... now at 1500hp ish - and soon to add another 12u/84hp just need some holes drilling!