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OK I've had a look through both builds and I think you have all convinced me to to go for the mantis case, ill probably use the mantis build above as a guide.. I wont be able to build it all at once probably a few modules at a time - and I might vary modules from it a bit - but keep the intention behind it - like maybe instead of a second plaits go for another vco to FM with - but I think a second vco is probably further down the line of acquisitions anyway.

Thanks again for all the help.

Question for any EU people in here, where are the best places to buy modules from? I've been looking at Thomann purely because as a guitarist in Ireland its always made the most sense for pedals etc. but if there are online shops that better serve modular id be keen to take a look.

No worries Garfield, Vector is a great sequencer probably one of the best for melodic composition in Eurorack. I love mine the screen is bright and easy to read and creating cool melody is easy and love the variation options. I will do a review and comparison in the future to the Erica Synths Black Sequencer when I get it and have time with it. For me, 2022 will be the year to master my many Eurorack sequencers and not buy any more gear except for cables and blanks. I decided to slow down and master my dozens of modules. Most are easy the sequencers demand time, study and practice as each has different workflow and process. I am really liking my Ground Control it is like a cross between an Arturia Keystep Pro and WMD Metron but very fast nice workflow. Plus it even has USB Midi connection for working with other non-modular gear.

Hi Mazz and Sacguy71,

Mazz: Thank you very much for the hint! That's weird, I checked last week Sunday or Monday when they announced their Black Friday sales and there was literately almost nothing interesting. I was there even for a quick moment on location in their shop last week, even then there was nothing special on offer. Now indeed they have a few Erica Synth modules on offer, great, I will check it out :-)

Music Store in Cologne (Köln) is my local dealer where I once and a while test stuff, a bit more than a half hour drive for me, so that's fine :-)

Sacguy71: this Music Store has now Euro 121 (i.e. 20%) off from that Black Sequencer price, they should have done that last year around this time, then I might have bought the Black Sequencer instead of the Five12 Vector ;-) Anyway, I am happy with my Vector, great sequencer!

Thanks again and kind regards, Garfield.

I do have a lot of VCAs! I will work on it and see if I can get creative while I wait for the holidays to pass and money to be mine again.

the sound output on my delta cep a shouldnt be outputting dc voltage? correct?

-- coyoteculler

Not necessarily. Some devices will output DC offsets via the audio, with the best-known example being the ARP 2600. It's been blowing up speakers for 50 years! But there IS a reason for this, and it's because these were built to also function as modulation and/or complex CV sources. So...annoyingly...there's a rule of thumb amongst some manufacturers that their stuff has to have that DC coupling, too.

Best solution, as always, isolation transformers.

I can do ducking with Boundary or Cascade, but that takes away their use as my main envelope generators. I have rarely found myself using the octal VCA because there are built in VCAs in the Boundary, Cascade, Doepfer LFO, and I have the Tangled Quartet as well as Skis in the drum skiff. Quantas Ampla would only eliminate 4 VCAs out of 17 total and give me the ability to duck four channels at once with one gate synced to the kick which the Bastl Tea Kick has a square out as well as the kick out. It will be a while before I can afford to get Data Bender, so I will continue to use the O&C and Tides and see what I can get out of them. I haven't used Tides as a VCO yet, so maybe that's what tonight will bring!
-- xnax

I was meaning work out how to patch it from scratch not relying on any particular module to do it for you...

you could take a copy of the kick (or the gate of the kick) and invert it and then add that to the envelope(s) you want to duck... or pass through a vca twice 1st with the intended envelope and again with the inverted gate... you have a lot of vcas you could use!

I have been looking for good compression for the drums. I had looked at the 1u Golden Master, but people said it was noisy. Most people liked the 3u so that might end up in the drum skiff. The Mutant Hot Glue looks amazing, but big, and space is limited for now. I definitely want my rhythm section to be able to cut through better than it is. I hadn't thought of using on of my attenuators to boost it before. More things to think over.

Drums benefit greatly from a compressor/mixer and attenuator. I ran an experiment recently with a few drum modules in my setups without an EQ & compressor and with EQ/compressor and the compressor/boost made a world of difference! Something like Hexinverter Mutant Hot Glue or Endorphin.es Golden Master do the job well.

I can do ducking with Boundary or Cascade, but that takes away their use as my main envelope generators. I have rarely found myself using the octal VCA because there are built in VCAs in the Boundary, Cascade, Doepfer LFO, and I have the Tangled Quartet as well as Skis in the drum skiff. Quantas Ampla would only eliminate 4 VCAs out of 17 total and give me the ability to duck four channels at once with one gate synced to the kick which the Bastl Tea Kick has a square out as well as the kick out. It will be a while before I can afford to get Data Bender, so I will continue to use the O&C and Tides and see what I can get out of them. I haven't used Tides as a VCO yet, so maybe that's what tonight will bring!

tides is a great vco too

the octal vca is fine

try working out how to patch a ducking vca with what you have - it's almost certainly in there somewhere

Let's see if I can try to help and also save some time for the people who usually help everyone by pointing the obvious:

Thanks @toodee - we appreciate it!!!

• "Seq. switch because I've heard people say they're important" -> that's not a good reason to buy any module IMHO. Buy them because YOU UNDERSTAND or at least strongly suspect WHY they are important. Advice: pick up a copy of the free VCV rack and experiment, understand what VCA's and switches etc can do. Remind yourself that an amplification section in modular (a VCA) can serve many more purposes than the amplification section of most fixed architecture synths, most of modules can be "abused" in funny and/or musical ways. A similar remark comes to mind for Beads, I mean sure, Beads, amarite, but if I ask Beads or Mimeophon or Arbhar, do you still have a firm answer and justification ?
• Doepfer + 2Hp VCA: looks like the space would be better occupied by a MI Veils 2020. If you don't understand why, I can only offer RTFM as advice :-)

couldn't agree more if I tried

• 2HP modules are great but a bunch of them cobbled together can get hard to wiggle - those things are tiny, mate. You may want to consider the user experience aspect when designing your instrument.

ditto

• Case size: Trying to rock 2 voices in a GENERATIVE setup with this space is ambitious to say the least. I can't remember what the exact titles were, but there are threads about this on this very forum. Basically, if you want to go generative, the 2HP TM will likely not be enough, and you have no ways to do logic, almost no modulation source. In the (approximated) words of a wiser member of this forum, the utility modules are the shine for the fancy nice looking modules, without it they remain dull for the most part. VCV will normally help you realize those shortcomings. Usually I see the TipTop Mantis case being recommended a lot but if you keep your build centered around only supporting the M32, you may not need a case as big as the Mantis. My advice is to at least PLAN your modular in a bigger space to get rid of that space limitation in your head, see what you need and then pick a case for the use you will have - and leave some space for (limited, if you want) expansion, modular is almost guaranteed to open a lot of doors in your head, so it can be good to be ready for when that happens.

see signature for the 'quote' & thanks once again - not sure I'm that wise though

re the tm and tune modules - I have had these modules from early on in my modular - of all the modules that I have, if I ever needed to sell any for any reason these would be the first to go - they can give you a taste of generative, but really they are a pita to use and you still really need a quantizer and a buffered mult to support them (distribution) and preferably a 2nd sequencer of some sort (mom maybe good for this) and a precision adder - so that you can transpose the generated melodies - otherwise they can get stale really quickly - I was so happy once Marbles came out -basically 3 quantized tms plus a load of other stuff in a really useful and ergonomic module - if you want psuedo-generative this is a decent way to go

the Mantis has a lot going for it in terms of starter case - decent size, not too expensive, very very good power supply - there's absolutely no need to fill the case - that's what blank panels are for - but it will leave you enough space to expand a decent bit in the futture without buying yet another case & power supply & potentially the 3 tiered stand

Including M32: NO. If you are thinking about putting the M32 in anything other than its own casing, don't, unless you have a large case that has a lot of empty space, it's a waste of space and therefore money (because you pay for the space in the case).

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to put the mom in a euro case temporarily in order to make the case seem fuller, but keep in mind that it should have a much lower priority in the case than actual modules - these need putting in a case whilst the mom has it's own already!

• Obligatory delay, reverb: why obligatory ? Unless you have very specific needs in terms of effects, like say the need for being able to CV control FX parameters, there may be other cheaper ways to handle this... As you have not included an Output module, I'm assuming you will feed this to a mixer or sound card of some sort. The latter implies a DAW, and therefore cheap great sounding FX VST's which could liberate precious space.

personally I like effects in a case - but possibly not taking up this much room in this size case - the fx aid xl is incredibly versatile - even has some drums and other useful non-effects programs now and has a decent amount of modulation inputs

• Doepfer mixer: if you intend to keep the build as small as possible, I don't understand this choice of mixer, there are smaller offerings, or similar sizes that offer more.

assuming you already have the mom - how are you listening to that at the moment?

For your future research, plenty of excellent advice for similar questions. Type "generative" or "ambient" in the search bar from forum index and you'll have a lot to read.

Hope this of some use !
-- toodee

I think the doepfer voice module is an interesting way to go - instead of the 'obligatory' plaits - but it wouldn't be my choice - I'd rather have separate vco and filter to start with - 1 vco can feed multiple filters!

again totally agree - the more research you do now, the less money you will waste in the future - it really helps to think longer term than just what you can buy now - always leave room for expansion!

Here is the main case:

Here is the drum skiff:

Here is the Zoia/Voice skiff:

I also have a Naked Boards MC- 8 to control parameters of the Zoia, which I mostly use as end of chain effects and some utilities.

I still have a Make Noise 0-CTRL on order from when I first set out on this costly journey.

I have not purchased the Data Bender, the Ochd, and the Quantas Ampla as money has run out. In their place I have a tides knock off, an ornament and crime knock off, and a Doepfer 6hp 8xVCA. I need the ducking possibilities of the Quantas Ampla and don't really need all 8 VCAs on the Doepfer so I think thats a good trade. I have mostly been using the O&C as a random generator or a sloth and I have been using Tides as modulation as well. The hope is to replace those two with Ochd and create room for Data Bender. It wont be as good, but It should fill the role. I feel like I could use more random once I lose those two, but space is running out.

The drum skiff is probably the weakest and will be the next thing to overhaul when time/money permits.

Any thoughts/recommendations?

@Lugia
Thank you, glad its up to somebodies standards.
I took your suggestions. Nice and full :)

I needed a good supersaw module that would fit in my palette case and it worked out great for pair with drums. My friend has an Ensemble Oscillator and that sounds amazing as well but it is larger size and I had to plan space out my careful in the smaller case.

I don't have QPAS in the Make Noise Shared System it has Optomix which is a dual channel LPG that can work like a filter or VCA but lacking in more options in terms of what a traditional filter provides. Anyways put Wasp in the Make Noise case works well and the Dual Dagger in palette case should be fine. I was also looking at Endorphin.es Squawk Dirty but I have plenty of Endorphin.es modules now and have the larger brother of it in my Endorphin.es Shuttle System so a fun new filter in stereo is good. I also picked up a new Shakmat clock and clock divider module as I needed another clock to synchronize all of my portable modular systems besides Pam.

Chainsaw does sound pretty cool, I almost went for it, but felt like the Ensemble Oscillator was a better choice for me, and I probably won't need both. Probably ? Oh no, not again ! :-)
Anyway, I currently have a patch going involving the EO and Dual Dagger, brother is it delicious-sounding stereo goodness, it's butter made of notes moving from one ear to the next - unless I start turning the Cross-FM knob on the EO, also known as the "Summon The Demons" knob, then I'm going navigating into the 7 circles of Hell :-D The Dual Dagger would be a great choice for you, a great alternative to the QPAS I believe you already own (and very different beasts, of course) and it's also pretty useful for the reverse use case, to make a mono signal animated in stereo...

Thank you @toodee for that great recommendation. I can swap out the Wasp and put that in my Make Noise case which really is begging for a proper filter anyways as it only has a LPG to fill the space gap and get Cyber Monday deal on the Shakmat Dual Dagger. Chainsaw is super awesome!

As im a bit new in that world i dont understand yet how the attenuator, mults and so forth will help me: its a way to increase the potentiality of each module by adding more connexion available ?
-- heliovolana

Not exactly, they allow you to control your signals in different ways. Maths has attenuators but using those as simple attenuators will quickly become old, and you'll be looking for more. Luckily, attenuating cables exist, I bought some at Schneiders. Attenuators will attenuate (reduce) a signal, useful when sending an LFO to say a filter cutoff, you don't usually want your cutoff being moved for the entire range, the attenuator allows you to control that range.
Mults allow you to copy a signal (say an envelope triggered with your voice, to send it to both VCA and filter), etc. I won't go over what all utilities do, but someone already did, more or less : https://learningmodular.com/ Chris was also involved in the writing of an amazing book as well: https://learningmodular.com/patch-tweak/ Both video courses and the book are fantastic learning resources, a lot of effort went into those. There's also a lot of good free stuff on Youtube as well, for example my favorite Youtuber is Ben DivKid (), his videos are very informative even you don't have the module being demoed, as most techniques will apply to a lot of systems/modules.

EDITED Nov 29th 2021, 16:48

Hello and welcome to MG,

Let's see if I can try to help and also save some time for the people who usually help everyone by pointing the obvious:

• "Seq. switch because I've heard people say they're important" -> that's not a good reason to buy any module IMHO. Buy them because YOU UNDERSTAND or at least strongly suspect WHY they are important. Advice: pick up a copy of the free VCV rack and experiment, understand what VCA's and switches etc can do. Remind yourself that an amplification section in modular (a VCA) can serve many more purposes than the amplification section of most fixed architecture synths, most of modules can be "abused" in funny and/or musical ways. A similar remark comes to mind for Beads, I mean sure, Beads, amarite, but if I ask Beads or Mimeophon or Arbhar, do you still have a firm answer and justification ?
• Doepfer + 2Hp VCA: looks like the space would be better occupied by a MI Veils 2020. If you don't understand why, I can only offer RTFM as advice :-)
• 2HP modules are great but a bunch of them cobbled together can get hard to wiggle - those things are tiny, mate. You may want to consider the user experience aspect when designing your instrument.
• Case size: Trying to rock 2 voices in a GENERATIVE setup with this space is ambitious to say the least. I can't remember what the exact titles were, but there are threads about this on this very forum. Basically, if you want to go generative, the 2HP TM will likely not be enough, and you have no ways to do logic, almost no modulation source. In the (approximated) words of a wiser member of this forum, the utility modules are the shine for the fancy nice looking modules, without it they remain dull for the most part. VCV will normally help you realize those shortcomings. Usually I see the TipTop Mantis case being recommended a lot but if you keep your build centered around only supporting the M32, you may not need a case as big as the Mantis. My advice is to at least PLAN your modular in a bigger space to get rid of that space limitation in your head, see what you need and then pick a case for the use you will have - and leave some space for (limited, if you want) expansion, modular is almost guaranteed to open a lot of doors in your head, so it can be good to be ready for when that happens.
  Including M32: NO. If you are thinking about putting the M32 in anything other than its own casing, don't, unless you have a large case that has a lot of empty space, it's a waste of space and therefore money (because you pay for the space in the case).
• Obligatory delay, reverb: why obligatory ? Unless you have very specific needs in terms of effects, like say the need for being able to CV control FX parameters, there may be other cheaper ways to handle this... As you have not included an Output module, I'm assuming you will feed this to a mixer or sound card of some sort. The latter implies a DAW, and therefore cheap great sounding FX VST's which could liberate precious space.
• Doepfer mixer: if you intend to keep the build as small as possible, I don't understand this choice of mixer, there are smaller offerings, or similar sizes that offer more.

For your future research, plenty of excellent advice for similar questions. Type "generative" or "ambient" in the search bar from forum index and you'll have a lot to read.

Hope this of some use !

thanks for the info. I believe the issue was my oscillator was pitched very high and was being affected by a sine lfo that was slow.i thought i had no output and turned it up and the suddenly got output. 1 smoked elac. now i take time and turn stuff up slowly

the sound output on my delta cep a shouldnt be outputting dc voltage? correct?

Interesting to read that you had the same setup before moving on.
-- kvnlxm

I haven't moved on! I still have the DB-01 and Digitakt and use them, alone, with each other, and with my modular. The coupling can be as loose as sharing just clock, or I can send CV/MIDI information among them. But I have mostly not tried to do anything in the rack that I could reasonably approximate (or, in the case of the DB-01, exceed) outside it.

wow, thanks both so much for putting all that effort in!

A lot for me to take in and absorb here so ill come back later today and spend some time when I have more to go through it in detail and get my head around some of the unfamiliar modules

Thanks again, super helpful!

I'm planning on building a small modular system with a Mother-32 as the "heart", with a selection of modules to expand. You can probably tell I want to make ambient/generative with it. I cobbled together this rough idea based on my admittedly limited knowledge of Eurorack and the space a two-layered Moog case would give me to work with. How does it look? What am I missing? What could I get rid of? And most importantly, will it do what I want? No doubt in my mind that there's some potential there, but I could use some second opinions.

M32 as a complete voice w/ all those patch points, filter and sequencer to start with. Budget won't be huge and I'm trying to maximise on space, functionality and flexibility, so for me the A-111-6 as a whole additional self-contained voice in 10hp makes sense. Then, Beads, because Beads I guess - whatever those things do I like it. Two VCAs next, necessary or would just one cut it? TM and Quantizer seem like obvious additions...Seq. switch because I've heard people say they're important. Obligatory delay, reverb and mixer at the end. Seems like you can add quite a lot of functionality vs. space with the 2HP stuff, but that leaves room for basically two "big" modules. A digital oscillator perhaps?

I'm not sure how I overlooked this module and thread, but I'm going to strongly consider picking up a Tarot. Very cool.

Quick suggestion: consider replacing the Wasp in there with the amazing Shakmat's Dual Dagger: 4 filters in only 6 HP (basically 2 HP and 2 LP per channel), and will deal with the stereo signal from your chainsaw a little better IMHO. If you're hand with an iron, they do sell it as a kit as well - I built mine with the Shakmat team in Brussels and I've been enjoying delicious stereo filtering ever since. Would work nicely as an end of chain performance filter as well I suppose ;-)

EDITED Nov 29th 2021, 10:52

I had a DB-01 and Digitakt before I started buying modules. Honestly, I think you should get the DB-01 and work with it, then see what you are still missing and want from modular. It will be expensive to build up modules that come close to what the DB-01 offers, and the DB-01 has three CV inputs (in addition to clock in/out and MIDI in/out) and a hot output, so it can be easily hooked up to a rack in future. Erica Synths does have a Bassline module (I suspect it shares much circuitry with the DB-01) but it lacks noise, synced LFO, and most importantly the seriously playable sequencer that really puts it into 303 territory. I know this is a modular forum and I should be talking up Eurorack, but sometimes the alternative is better.
-- plragde

Speaking money-wise and maybe also how fast I can get something going, it would be the better option at this point. Interesting to read that you had the same setup before moving on. So I am really considering it, but will first continue my research. I am quite hooked on the idea to start a modular system because I want to explore it and to create my own instrument. However, I realise that this is far from being done and I think that finding the sound you want can take years of experimenting, trial and error, and so on. I also saw the Bassline module and even though it is not the same as the db-01, it might be a good start in a setup.

@Lugia: Your comment is much appreciated. There is a lot of densely compressed information in there! I think at this point I have to re-evaluate my options and maybe start out with VCV-Rack, play around, see what I can get done in there and understand the process of building a modular synth in more depth. Then I might come back here with my second shot on a system. If I end up buying the db-01 I will post that here ;)

And I've got more than that at my own disposal...and I STILL think the overuse of those mults is not the right way to proceed. And this is coming from about 40 years of work in this medium.

You're confusing the presence of equipment with the successful use of it. Just because Christophe Beck works this way does NOT mean that it's the proper method. Equipment != success.

EDIT: And also, the current approach wastes a bunch of space and money. Instead of popping in mults all over the place, use this: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-utility-1-mix-mult This way, if you need to split off a bunch of buffered outs, they're all in this one module along with some unity-gain mixing capabilities. It's also only $211-ish, as opposed to the present approach, which comes in at around $365, and it only needs 12 hp to accomplish this instead of the current situation.
-- Lugia

Alright! I get it! But really not. I have no idea what unity-gain and buffered outs mean. But anyway, can anyone maybe identify all the modules (just for fun, take it easy) in the twitter link I embedded above or is there a website for this?

I would choose IME Piston Honda MK2 over Kermit for your VCO. More musical and better options. Kermit excels as a quad modulation source since the oscillator is too harsh in most cases. I recommend put a case together here and share the link so we can help you better. You need support utilities like attenuator, mults and so forth. I highly recommend the Kinks and Links combo from Mutable Instruments or something like Links and WMD SSF Toolbox.
-- sacguy71
Thanks, i edit my post, now theres the link with my rack.
I was hesitating between the DPO make noise, the piston honda, and the kermit, different quality, complexity and also different price... As im a bit new in that world i dont understand yet how the attenuator, mults and so forth will help me: its a way to increasethe potentiality of each module by adding more connexion available ? i dont find the kinks and links combo so i put the WMD SSF on my rack.

And if you dig complex timbres, there IS the Tiptop/Buchla 258t.
-- Lugia
thanksss ! but so far the 258t is not developped yet because still under development no ? Unfortunatelly i need to buy my rack now.

Control Voltage in Portland has the mega sale on the Erica Synths modules. Not sure if they ship overseas. I score close to $200 off of a new Black Sequencer to use with my setups.

I am so jealous, 20% off on Erica Synths, wow :-) Here, barely anything went down in price, especially on modular level the Black Friday wasn't very spectacular.
-- GarfieldModular

Hi GarfieldModular, I don't know where you're based, but Music Store has about 20 Erica Synths modules on sale right now.
As far as I know they have warehouses in Köln and London.

EDITED Nov 29th 2021, 07:36

We talked about the Serge one when we met. At some spots, the Tarot can even "chorus" the harmonics, especially good on leads and stuff like that.

Hi

I would do something like this. Lugia will definitely give you a better more complete version but I can only really talk about the modules I have so I'm pretty confident this would work.

Pams - use this for clock, triggers, envelopes, lfo's etc (divkid has a wicked video on it)

Varigate 4 + - you have a great deal of flexibility including randomisation with this sequencer, you can use it in multiple configurations and it has quantization built in.

Beehive - smaller version of plaits

Jove filter - I pair my plaits with this. It makes plaits sound expensive.

2hp mix - this is for mixing your oscillator waveforms

wasp - take the mixed waveforms and use a wasp filter on them.

pip slopes and vca are for your end of chain - use the pip slopes in your filter and your vca. Look into what EOS does and that will open up a new world for you too

mix everything in the befaco st mix in the first two channels

you can return the delay and reverb into 2nd two channels of the st mix then take the l + r of the st mix into your 1 u out . this way you can use the delay and reverb on your oscillator and on the plaits clone together.

Also I would take a lot of modulation from pams and pipe all that into quadratt and then take the mix out into various modulation inputs. You will get a lot of variation in your sound this way by mixing cv sources

hope this helps.

Nah. It actually works far easier than you'd think. What the Maths is is sort of weird...it has more in common with my still-needing-to-be-restored Systron-Donner 3300 analog computer project. It can output all sorts of modulation curves...even asymmetrical ones. It can output an inverted version at the same time. And you can constantly futz around with it, warping and bending the modulation BY HAND as if the module was some mutant modulation controller/source...because that's pretty much what it IS. Yeah, it's 20 hp...but that 20 in "normal" modules could probably blow up to twice that size if you tried to replicate Maths with discrete modules.

Working on this as a Mantis build...

[Later] Oh, hawt daaamn...OK, this is where I took it:

As I noted, this build is in a Tiptop Mantis.

Top: This is your "voice" path. It starts with a proper input for the guitar that ALSO has the necessary level comparator and envelope follower from which you can send amplitude-controlled modulation. Disting next, then TWO Plaits (two oscillators can sound VERY thick) along with Happy Nerding's FM Aid, which allows the pair of Plaits to work together as a rather twisted FM source with thru-zero modulation. Veils is your VCA set, then the Forbidden Planet (I've used a Synthacon...and it howls and screeches beautifully, a potentially very cutting "lead" filter) AND a Rossum Evolution for many more filter topologies. Then next, a Ladik AUX mixer/distro. It's used to bring the effects in as a parallel mix, as opposed to using wet/dry controls for FX/mix balance. But there's a little secret here, in that the Chronoblob2 has an insert in the feedback path...so you can feed the delay directly, but break out an insert to feed through the FX Aid XL and then back...and things will get STRANGE. Last is a Happy Nerding Isolator, a stereo out with transformer isolation which lets you hit the module a bit harder, and you get back some nice transformer warm-up. But MUCH more importantly, the use of the guitar opens the build up to external noise, particularly if the output isn't isolated. Ergo, this.

Bottom: Modulation and clocking. For the MIDI, I went a lot further and put in an Expert Sleepers FH-1, which is a class-compliant MIDI over USB interface that can also work as a plug-n-go interface for a USB-MIDI controller such as the Keystep. All channels are also MIDI configurable. Footpedal interface next, then a little but potent Doepfer module that has your noise source, random voltage source, and either sample and hold or track and hold. But as for the Pam's...it sounds more like what's needed here is a Temps Utile, which is what I put in. Check the specs, and you'll see why. After that main clock gen, I've added some timing FSU fun...with a dual pulse delay, a dual pulse skipper, and a Tesseract CVable Boolean logic module for messing around with the extant clock patterns, making even MORE pattern possibilities. Then the last of those modules there output gates on up, down, steady, or moving CVs, and a comparator allows you to compare two voltages and derive even MORE gates with which to feed the Boolean gates. Note, also, that the T_u contains some random sequential tricks that can ALSO benefit from these timing manglers.

After that, a 4ms Pingable Quad LFO...and yes, the "ping" functions can set your LFO times. These also have a range from 1 kHz down to a bonkers 71 minutes in waveform length. This is useful for both regular LFO duties AND as a slow-mo source for generative work. Then, yep, Maths. And it now has clock pulses to chew on, which can trigger up even MORE interesting modulation/control funtimes. After that, a Frap 321 is there to mix/mangle/invert/etc your modulation curves, and a dual VCA based on the Veils topology is next to that so that you can control modulation levels via CV. Then your main EG set is the Quadrax, with the Qx so if you want to "cascade" the four envelope gens (in whatever order you like) to behave as one huge and VERY complex device, it's an easy patch. Clock it up at audio rates and see where THAT leads!

This is why most of us don't endorse "beauty case" builds. You simply cannot build THIS in THAT. And "THIS" is a very comprehensive 2 x 104 rig that you'll have to work very hard at to exhaust the patching possibilities. It'll be an asset to you for many years, and expand nicely into a bigger configuration later on...IF you think you need to!

EDITED Nov 29th 2021, 04:26

After looking at the docs on Isla's site, one caveat here might be the audio output levels not matching normal synth signal levels. I'd suggest something like this: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ladik-a-520-4ch-in-line-preamp Or rather, two of them, as that'll allow you to send ALL separate channels of the S2400 right into the modular's audio path. This then makes all of those play nice with the synth effects
-- Lugia

Thanks a lot for that suggestion! I had not thought about going this route. This might be the best way to go about it, and make some room for a panning mixer, either in the rack or external, and actually record everything that way I want in one take…

Love that idea. Thank you.

After looking at the docs on Isla's site, one caveat here might be the audio output levels not matching normal synth signal levels. I'd suggest something like this: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/ladik-a-520-4ch-in-line-preamp Or rather, two of them, as that'll allow you to send ALL separate channels of the S2400 right into the modular's audio path. This then makes all of those play nice with the synth effects.

As for the rest, it seems to be able to deal with most any MIDI you throw at it, so using it to "translate" clocking should work, and the specs show that the clock out on the S2400 operates at the proper +5V level. So there's your lock-up!

Personally, I think this could actually be solved by adding a few little groups of letters to the panel graphics to definitively show "OUT" and "IN". This "colored jack" labeling method is also one of the more annoying thing about Moog's 60 hp-ers.

There ya go! This isn't a bad build at all. The only thing that seems to need changing...and you have the space once you pull the HN mixer and the 2 hp blank...is that HN mixer. Instead of that, drop in a Doepfer A-138s. It has ACTUAL pan controls, instead of using the L+R jacks as "psuedo-pans". And you've got four VCAs prior to it, so level control to the stereo mixer will be possible. Put the FX Aid XL after that, then use its wet/dry control to add your effects to the final mix.

Smart stuff going on in here, though...the Octasource addition is spot-on, and the addition of ADDAC's Marble Physics is a huge generative plus. And the VCA complement is pretty much THERE...four up for audio, six down for modulation. The lower row might benefit from some attenuverters to invert things such as envelope signals, and there I'd suggest pulling the two 2 hp blanks and putting in a Fonitronic Cascade, which is a triple attenuverter + CV or audio mixer module. And for the last blank in the upper left, add a buffered mult as the destinations are approaching that "voltage sag possibility" zone. Or, use the existing Links for that function, yank the upper-left blank, slide everything up to the Kinks (also goes away) left, and drop in a SSF Tool Box to add a bunch of utility functions that'll be super-useful.

I know this is a modular forum and I should be talking up Eurorack, but sometimes the alternative is better.
-- plragde

Too true! This is the big reason why most of the users here don't try and build a drum section in a modular. Not only is that confusing, it gets VERY expensive very quickly, and you probably lose some of the functionality that's built into a good drum machine.

Decades ago, when TB-303s were screaming upward in price, a number of people tried to recapture the TB-303s lightning in a bottle. And largely, that never worked...mainly because none of these took the time to dissect how the 303 achieves its trademark sound. But users back then did, and here's what we found...

First of all, a big part of the 303 sound comes from the sequencer, and how it treats events such as the "glide", by having a gradual up or down slide until you hit around +/- 50 cents, then it quickly snaps up to the next pitch. It's a very WEIRD slew implementation, not at all symmetrical, and was part of why the TB-303 initially "failed". It just didn't sound good on bass like a bass guitar etc, which is how Roland was marketing it.

Next, the filter. It's weird. It's a 3-pole lowpass...18 dB, where we're used to 2-pole and 4-pole ones. Attempting to replicate the 303 sound with those VCFs, though, won't sound right...because the 303 doesn't sound "right" when used as Roland suggested. They never intended for the yowling ACIEEED sound to define the device...and when it was new, that sound wouldn't emerge for another 5-6 years, eventually coming to the fore with Larry Heard's first acid house tracks.

Third, the oscillator. Use dirt-simple waveforms...square or sawtooth. Anything more spectrally elaborate just doesn't sound correct. It was a big point of the "Devilfish" mods that you could set up a second oscillator, but it still kept these waveforms because it was recognized that changing those would take things away from that sound "zone" that the 303 resides in.

And lastly, Roland themselves. When the TB-303 failed spectacularly and what's estimated at THOUSANDS of units were landfilled, they adopted this inflexible policy that they would never, EVER reissue it. Even when used units were up above $2k. Instead, what we eventually got was:

The MC-303, which was more like a "techno home organ".
The TB-3, which...well, simply wasn't a 303 in the normal sense.
The "boutique" TB-03. Guys, using the same VA architecture with a different interface ultimately equals more or less the same soulless sound.

Then there's a LOT of clones of the 303, with some (Erica's Bassline, the Cyclone Analogic TT-303) getting damn close and others (Uli's first 303 attempt, pretty much ANY effort by Roland) that just didn't nail that sound. Disturbingly, though, B.'s redux of the TD-3 which incorporates many of the Devilfish mods...really DOES sound like a Devilfish-modded TB-303. The build quality makes me nervous there, though, as B. is going with a similarly cheap build method like how Roland made the original.

And then, there's another which doesn't SOUND like a TB-303 because the synth engine is algorithmic FM, and that would be the Sonicware Liven XFM. To me, this one seems like the actual win, as the sequencer behaves "properly" and yet you've got a totally different and potentially FAR MORE capable engine with the FM generation method. And amusingly, it's the second cheapest 303-alike (B's TD-3 is the winner there because...uh, B.'s cheaper build method is...well, it is what it is).

And if you dig complex timbres, there IS the Tiptop/Buchla 258t. Two of these, even better! They're a time-tested design, far less complicated to use than something like the Piston Honda while possessing the ability to get into VERY complex and shifting timbral content. And at $200-ish a pop...well, how can you say no?

Yeah I think I'd just seen people using it for clock divisions and trigs and thought thats all it did - looking into a bit more it seems way more powerful

"Yes, that's clever, but it ties the whole module up and doesn't let me use it for more fundamental things".

Can see how that's an issue alright, thinking the mults and attenuverter would help free this up a little but probably counter intuitive to patch like that in the moment

and you are full of crap Next_G so buzz off
-- sacguy71

+1. Either contribute a way to avoid what you're talking about, or STFU.

I tend to leave mults out of my builds because, in smaller builds, they eat space. However, when I start heading to four rows and beyond (especially if the rows are over 104 hp), a couple of passives or so is a must. At that point, you're not "stealing space" from functional devices...you're adding something that'll make a large build easier to use.

And of course, once your destinations for a CV source go beyond 4-5 devices on the same CV, that's when you stick in a buffered mult, usually up by the VCOs.

And I've got more than that at my own disposal...and I STILL think the overuse of those mults is not the right way to proceed. And this is coming from about 40 years of work in this medium.

You're confusing the presence of equipment with the successful use of it. Just because Christophe Beck works this way does NOT mean that it's the proper method. Equipment != success.

EDIT: And also, the current approach wastes a bunch of space and money. Instead of popping in mults all over the place, use this: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/other-unknown-utility-1-mix-mult This way, if you need to split off a bunch of buffered outs, they're all in this one module along with some unity-gain mixing capabilities. It's also only $211-ish, as opposed to the present approach, which comes in at around $365, and it only needs 12 hp to accomplish this instead of the current situation.

EDITED Nov 29th 2021, 04:41

Hey there,

I was hoping I could get some commentary on my rack. I will be pairing my modular primarily with an external sampler (s2400 by Isla Instruments). The goal here is to use the sampler as a bit of a brain, housing drums, chords/leads/vocals, and whatever else. I can also use ableton wherever I’d like, as everything is being run through that.

The modular is there to serve as a “stab lab” creating mostly basslines (which I could sequence live alongside the sampler), as well as sample processing, pre and post s2400 (eg, warm up a break to then be chopped, or chop and then warm up). Eurorack also provides interesting effects like delays, convolution reverb, e560, Morpheus, vocoder and compressor.
There are also a bit of a bare minimum utility modules to be used as well.

Could potentially get some heat from thisb but the eurorack really will serve primarily in creating/processing samples, so I feel, while more utility (logic, random, s+h, etc) it may not be necessary yet since I’m sequencing through the Shuttle Control.

Would love any thoughts, any modules I could look out for, etc.

Thanks!

You can do a lot with Maths. You can do a lot with other DUSG-inspired modules as well. Some of the things you can do with modules are "Yes, that's clever, but it ties the whole module up and doesn't let me use it for more fundamental things".

Pam's is not a sequencer, as far as I'm concerned. It provides clock division and multiplication, synchronized LFOs of various shapes, Euclidean rhythms, some basic logic, clocked random CV that can be quantized (so random notes in a musical scale, but not a fixed sequence unless you dive in and use the LOOP function to repeat a random chunk – you can't write your own), and smooth random CV. It is not the most tweakable in the moment, but the menus are not too deep, and for set-and-forget it is terrific.

Ill look into cosmotronic delta-V, im not as familiar with it - ill watch some videos and see - maths just seems really cool when you start patching it into itself using all the channels, have watched a bunch of videos on it and at first had no idea why people rave about it and then started to understand how many possibilities it leads to.

Pam's does seem quite useful, i'd kind of written it off as a sequencer but it seems its much more than that - also need to look into it a bit more.

Personally, I think Maths is too large for a case this size, though that's clearly a minority view. Consider the Cosmotronic Delta-V, cheaper and half the size. It can't do everything that Maths can, but it can do some things that Maths can't, and that gets you 10hp to fill as you see fit. Pam's is really useful!

Learning my way around new gear and the Acid Technology Chainsaw definitely cuts through the mix with Doepfer Wasp
Sorry for my sneeze on the video.