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a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities
-- JimHowell1970

depending how you count these, I would say my planned rack is not too far from your proportion, depending on how you would count a PAM or a O&C or a Threshold/Edge or many other modules with multiple functions, maybe i should browse the utilities section again and see if i find inspiration there.

It's quite a fluid formula - and open to interpretation - is tides a sound source or a modulation siurce? is a self-oscillating resonant filter a sound source or a sound modifier? I'd usually group things by primary intent within the confines of the rack...

Not all modules are meant to fit in - it's not a comprehensive theory of everything, it's a suggestion of a way to think in order to get the most versatility in patching in a modular for the least expense (& it scales incredibly well - from the smallest rack to Vince Clark proportions) and particularly to steer people away from just buying sound sources and modifiers - there are newbies who don't want to buy mixers as they think they are a waste of money, until of course they work out that they need one or more to get the most out of the expensive shiny modules that don't interact without them...

Pams and O&C & distings - and similar modules don't really fit - at least until in some cases the user has settled on a primary intent for the module - say using O&C as a quad

I'm not a big fan of multi-function modules... I only really have one - a disting mk4 (ok 2, I have a pams as well) - and I only really use it for one thing - tape delay (although if I desperately needed something else that it can do I would use it for that) - I prefer, especially with utiltiies - single function modules or small collections of functions that are all available at once - kinks, samara etc

I really think the best use for modules such as disting and O&C is to determine which modules you really need - so if you always use the O&C as a quad quantizer, buy a quad quantizer and use O&C for something else, and repeat...

If this is a planned rack (as opposed to a physically owned rack), as you state above, SERIOUSLY, the best thing you can do is share it... it will massively help us help you... don't be embarrased that it might be a pile of unusable crap or that you are spending thousands on a monosynth or that it's too big/small or whatever... the single worst thing you can do is not to share it...
there are people here (myself included) who have years & years of experience helping newbies design workable modular synthesizers - taking into account many many factors and many different styles of music - and we do it for free!!!

A picture paints a thousand words, as they say!!! - and the url of your public rack paints a thousand pictures

maybe some crazy utility module at 4/6 hp with a reasonable amount of no-nonsense trig ins, cv outs and vcas, or potentially even bigger if it also brings a 2 channel audio mixer might do the trick of adding more potential automations

-- Dan_ogq

this really sounds like too much in too small a space to be ergonomically pleasing - ie playable, ie no fun...

PS no idea what you mean by "edge/threshold" - unless you mean a comapator or envelope follower!

i don't think knowing I have that particular module would be relevant to the question, signals are signals no matter where they come from.

it's not about particular modules - it's about balance

for all we know you may have mostly sound sources and sound modifiers and hardly any modulation sources or utilities, you may or you may have adequate modulation sources and not enough utilities... seeing your rack really helps in that regard - I've seen and helped hundreds of people with their racks, over years - but I kind of need to get an overview of what's in the rack in order to give advice... it's a massive aid to thought...

a balanced modular tends towards this:

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

& most people at least in the early stages of their modular (the first few years) tend to have very few utilities

the solution for you rack may be remove a couple of vcos and an effect and add more utilties - or add a row and fill it with utilities... but it's impossible to tell without actually seeing it - imo any advice you get without us seeing your rack will be spurious at best

the reasoning is quite straightforward, patch cables go from input to output hence an optimised system should ideally have the same number of these, no matter which modules are included.
I have checked my system and there are 90ish inputs and 60ish outputs, and as because the audio signals already converge into one stereo/mono output (more or less), what's left out is just unused cv inputs (plus maybe one or two triggers).

not all modules need to be used in any given patch and not all inputs and outputs need to be utilized...

i think this is a situation many people can relate to, but I would like to explore solutions other than just stacking and duplicating modulations... for instance rectifiers seems quite a cheap and interesting solution

most utiltities are (comparatively) inexpensive, especially if you go fo doepfer or ladik or similar manufacturers and not instruo!
attenuverters, offsets, switches and matrix mixers are more...

you may be putting undue pressure on yourself to use everything all the time - I have 4 guitars, a bass, 20+ effects pedals, 4 amplifiers, about 1500hp of modules (both audio and video), a few keyboards, some outboard etc etc and amazingly I don't use all of it all of the time - in fact I use very little of it at any one time, at least in some part because it's physically impossible - I just use what I need when I need it...

a note about the ochd: i love the idea behind this module, but i would rather have 4 only lfos but with a reset input and knobs to tweak the frequencies...
-- Dan_ogq

at last something we can agree on! at least to some extent - unsynced modulation sources are great for adding a little bit of movement to synced modulation - matrrix mixers are your friend in this...

and what goes in racks?? ah yes, modules - what you already have WILL influence recommendations!

it's entirely possible that you have at least one, or more, module that couold be temporarily sidelined in order to fit something bigger in... but unless you share your rack we won't know...

my recommendation would be for a matrix mixer, preferably doepfer, for ergonomics reasons... and some stack cables...

another possibility might be a sequential switch...

but as far as I know you already have these...

do yourself a favour - make your rack public and copy and paste the url into the thread!!!

there's no need to use every input or output...

it might be a good idea to share the url of your public rack so we can see what you have - it usually helps steer the recommendations a bit...

OK

Plaits is a different story... Mutable Instruments stopped, right? Who will repair if I buy second hand?

there are plenty iof people who can repair mutable modules - all but beads are completely open source, both hardware and software... a lot of the other clone manufacturers - After Later Audio etc I suspect will repair their modules if they need it - b-company on the otherhand will probably just bin it and give you a new one - not very environmentally friendly!

it might be an idea to share the url of your public rack - so we can see what you intend to buy... and what your budget is - both initial and ongoing - plus the case you intend to use...

usually people mock up their racks and paste the url when posting questions - it really helps and then list the extra stuff they have... this might be an idea for you?

I wouldn't want the microcosm as end of chain processing - I think things like that tend to work better when processing singke voices as opposed to many - although reverb is always good on full mixes...

sounds like you want a mixer... possibly an external one - I used a yamaha mg10 for quite a while - reasonably inexpensive

hmmmm.... I think you'd be much better off with a bigger case and something like a keystep pro... because you wiull need the expansion space almost immediately with this setup... I'd really suggest a great deal more research before parting with cash....

there are fundamental things missing...

your description of the intellijel adsr's compactness made me chuckle... as did the "you can never have too many lfos" when there's only 1 in there - the "you can never have too many.." meme is usually used for vcas...

speaking of which, there are no vcas to plug the envelope generator into... ok there's one on the tonestar, but that already has an adsr built in...

buchla is often linked with lpgs (not filters) which are also none existant... these are a cross between vcas and low pass filters...

whilst the tonestar is a voice - the tiptop/buchla module is a dual vco - you will see on the tonestar that the vco is a small part of the voice... they have no

reverb and delay are both incredibly useful...

take a look at my signature and think long & hard about how you might apply this to a rack that you might want...

seriously consider a minimum viable synth (at least to start):

a sound source (possibly rthe tiptop buchla one), a sound modifier (possibly 1 of the filters), a modulation source (you'll want more than 1 channel - a quad is a good idea, batumi - or possibly maths - particularly if you are into west coast serge/buchlaesque concepts), a way to listen (a quad cascading vca will work wonders as a basic mono output - a veils clone) and a way to play (maybe a keystep pro - or a pams - which could also double as a modulation source and a random pitch source) and a basic utility module for attenuation/inversion/offset (happy nerding 3 * mia)

another good idea is to work out what modules you want (based around how many voices you want) what modules each voice will need, what supporting modules they will need when combined and then work out how much rack space you need - leaving a good 25% of any rack you buy free for expansion - you will need it... instead of deciding on a case because it appears to be convenient...

if you want to fit the 4 voices that the nifty keys is designed for you, into it, you need to go much more compact with every module...

the besst thing to do in many ways is to start with very little - ie a minimum viable synth... a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen... plus maybe a basic utility...

so:

sound source - literally any will do - plaits clones are popular - as they have a lot of variety

modulation source - pams or maths are both great - although both complex (in different ways) - 1 is programmable with a simple menu system - the other is programmable with patch cables (this is a very powerful method and will transfer to all patching - see the 'maths illustrated supplement for further details - but really requires a lot of deep thought about what, when and how to get the most out of it)

a sound modifier - a low pass filter is a good start - doepfer make some inexpensive classics - moog, wasp, sem etc... and a multifx is another useful choice if you want to push the boat out a bit further - I'd go fx aid pro (screen exponentially improves the user experience)

a way to play - if the modulation source is Pams - then that can be a good start - it can do quantized stepped random pitch - otherwise it really depends on you...

a way to listen - a quad cascading vca such as a veils clone is a great starting point, although probably mono - which isn't really that big a deal - it will do the job and always be useful!

an utility - a module that can do attenuation/inversion/offset/mixing is also a good investment - possibly the best is the happy nerding 3 * mia - but there are others...

learn these modules inside and out and once you have done that (probably weeks, if not months) start adding slowly, 1 or 2 modules at a time, and repeating... try to keep a note of what you are missing as you go...

hope this helps...

Wow, what a thoughtful reply! I was just making notes to self for future idea.

I got this case as I wanted the spectraphon and did not have any room for this giant in my two cases. Once I have a house, I'll allow myself to buy a large eurorack case and have my "studio" somehwere other than the hall.

-- k0s0

sounds like a plan - sometimes it's hard to tell if people are newbies or not...

good luck wiht the house!!!

...Maybe I want the Nautilus delay with MI Veils or equivalent.
-- k0s0

I'd almost definitely want a quad cascading vca... veils or a clone is a good choice...

and probably a delay and a reverb...

don't think I'd want the nifty bundle pedals though... they don't have good reputations & are hard to resell...

tbh with the spectraphon - I'd want a bigger case... not enough room for support modules in a nifty case...

take a look at my signature - think it over for a while... then think about the modules you want and need to support it and then pick a case to house them, preferably leaving some space to expand (20% or so at least)

hexmix seems like overkill...

only 1 very large sound source?

only 1 very large effect?

possibly too much modulation...

not enough utilities besides the huge mixer...

rosie is discontinued (I think) & do you really need an output module? maybe not

black maths is kinda unobtanium unless you buy a shared system...

I'd suggest taking a look at my signature and spending some time thinking about it and how it relates bith to your rack and mission statement...

oh look and here's the actual link:

I'm not going to have that much of a go at the b-company modules - it's a matter of (your) conscience and ethics if you buy them or not - but supporting small manufacturers (ie everyone but the b-company) - who are more likely to inovate - is definitely a better way to go imo & I'd replace all of those if it was me...

other modules that could be removed:

scales... midi to cv and pitch cv from Ableton etc should be quantized and Pams can be used as a quantizer (& random pitch source) amongst other things... so why scales?????

link... can you not just use 1/8" -> 1/4" cables???

magneto - it's very large in such a small system - there are many other delays out there...

btw the befaco instrument interface is great!

do you really need so many inputs???? not enough mixing capability to take advantage of them in such a small rack with so little processing???

which leads to not enough utilities to support the modules... (including mixing)

I'd suggest taking a look at my signature and spending some time thinking about it and how it relates bith to your rack and mission statement...

EDITED Dec 6th 2023, 20:31

I'm planning on buiding a eurorack to connect to a keyboard for dugeon synth and dark ambient style music. Capable of soft, vintage and retro sound scapes. I'd like to keep everything minimal. Not too many modules with a small case build (65hp). Modules im looking for would be an fm oscillator, a filter, envelope controls (adsr), some vintage or lofi effects. And some delay reverb modules at the end.
-- Meenthgrea

with only 65hp you have run out of space before you fulfill your list of wanted modules - at least in any way that takes basic ergonomics, ie playability, into account... it is not unusual for newbies to

this does not include any space for the modules that you have left out that are needed to support the modules you think you want - specifically modulation and utilities... or for any expansion at a later date

further note - an fm oscillator is often paired with another vco in order to facilitate audio rate fm (

NB - the tex-mix master section requires at least 1 of the 4 * (stereo/mono) channel modules to work

I strongly suggest starting with a substantially larger case - tiptop mantis is an excellent starter case & still portable (unless you are a small child) - or significantly rethinking what will go in the case - for example a lot of the effects could be handled by effects pedals (don't forget some pedal interfaces for matching volume/impedence)

take a look at my signature & spend a significant amount of time considering the contents and how they would appky to any modular synth you might want to construct & then revisit the 'dream rack' applying these thoughts...

I'd also strongly recommend starting with a minimum viable synth - a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play and a way to listen... plus an attenuverter/offset module (happy nerding 3 * mia for example) and a quad cascading vca - some of these functions may be overlap on modules - a Pams can do modulation & envelopes and quantized stepped random for instance & a quad cascading vca can also be used as a mono output

hint: start with the modules that are both wanted and needed and NOT the case

hope this helps...

EDITED Dec 3rd 2023, 19:17

can't agree more with what @HGSynth is saying above...

I'm not convinced more modulation is needed, in fact I'd probably go with less - and add more utilities to leverage the modulation that's there to produce more (& more interesting) modulation...

so more mixers (& usually I'd say more vcas - but I think you have more than enough) especially and End Of Chain Mixer (or more sub mixers) & at least 1 matrix mixer (predominantly for modulation purposes) would be useful...

more things like switches, attenuverters, clock dividers etc & even some mults... & yes I know pams can do a lot of clock division - but an external one is also useful... for example send an audio signal into a clock divider - /2 = -1ve, /4 = -2ve squarewave outputs (bassline)

also some control modules would be a good idea - so you can make big overall changes easily - but at that point an extra case might be useful - so you can have one vertical and one horizontal... this would also make room for a decent sequencer (I like the erica black) & EOC mixer...

one of those analogies @HGSynth mentioned above is my signature... take a look at it and spend some time thinking about it and how it applies to your rack... especially the formula!

hope this helps...

as i said i am completely inexperienced, what would be a setup that would help me get into generative music well. thanks. can you give me some concrete suggestions so i can research further?

-- wrna1

there are a load of hints above to further your research... and get you started...

I'd also at least try to answer the questions posed above!!!

if you can go to an actual store thaty sells modules - this can be difficult depending where you live

as a start:

get a case - I recommend a mantis as a good starter...

get a sound source, a modulation source, a sound modifier, a way to play and a way to listen...

this will give you a minimum viable synth - with quantized random looping a melody, modulation and an effect and you will learn the basics of modular - once you have learnt these modules quite well you can think about adding more modules - another sound source (if you started with digital go analog - or vice versa) - filter(s) - more modulation - more utilities - a different way to sequence etc etc - I'd suggest only 1 or 2 at a time so you can learn the new module(s) & how they interact with the old modules before before

a Pam's (new or pro - read the manuals and compare functionality/prices/availability) will cover modulation and a way to play

for a sound source almost any vco will do - you can sort by popular - either a digital or analog one will do... if you are going for mutable clones then After Later Audio make full size ones as do a couple of other manufacturers - I'd avoid micro modules (hard to tune) - but make sure you google and read aas many opinions as possible - there's at least 1 that gets both good and very bad reports - especially for customer service

for a sound modifier - the FX Aid pro - is easy to use and has modulation/ a scope* built in etc and includes delays/reverbs/filters/loads of other stuff for you to explore and help work out what you actually need - you will probably want at least one filter per voice - but for starters the fx aid pro has filters... otherwise doepfer have some inexpensive classics - the wasp is popular as is the SEM, with good reason

for a way to listen - a good quad cascading vca - such as a veils clone - is a good investment - vcas are for modulation/cv as much as for audio... and will act perfectly well as a mono output to start with... stereo can come later if you want/need it...

add in a happy nerding 3 * mia - mix/invert/attenuate/offset

so 5 modules to start - a vco, a Pam's (pro/new), an FX Aid Pro, a Veils clone and a happy nerding 3 * mia

buy some stackcables and some regular patch cables

you will need blind panels (cardboard will work perfectly) - to stop you dropping cables onto tthe busboard and shorting out the electrics

I'd also recommend going to the modwiggler 1u & 3u subforum and reading the 'newbies start here' and 'all you need to know about power' threads - at least the first couple of pages...

if you have questions, ask... no such thing as a stupid question etc...

• I'm not overly convinced by scopes - yes they can help visualise what a modulation source is doing - but we're working with audio - so use your ears - plug a modulation source into a vco's pitch input and you will hear what it is doing by the change in pitch

EDITED Dec 2nd 2023, 11:54

I'm actually pretty jazzed by this feedback. In retrospect, I eschewed a lot of audio manipulation modules until I was confident that I had an otherwise solidly working instrument and understood how to use a lot of the more "functional" modules

good

(I tried to take @JimHowell1970's tagline seriously).

as should everyone!!!!

Matrix mixers being a good example - it took quite a while until I actually understood just how flexible and useful one could be in a patch, so now I'm excited for number two (and a stereo one, at that!). Perhaps that A-119 should get a closer look as well, for the same reason.

they are extremely versatile, aren't they...

So it's good to know that my planned rack is in a place where I can explore these sound sculpting modules more comfortably while also saving hp for the future. It's a little overwhelming trying to choose between the vast number of high-quality modules out there while worrying if the amazing demo videos that I rely upon represent a module's actual capabilities or rather the patching talents (and complementary background modules) of the musician filming. Particularly since it seems like a new game changer is coming out every few months. I just finished watching hours on the Spectraphon, for example. To that end, I'll definitely consider the Nautilus, as I see it covers ground I'm otherwise missing and seems fun to play (an issue of key importance to me nowawadays, and one that should have been from the very beginning).

I very rarely watch new module demos... I might scan a modwiggler thread... but very rarely do I find something I want to add...

The Sinfonion as well, which I had not previously looked too closely at since I didn't realize my rack was large enough to support it, but might be a step in a very interesting direction, particularly with how many voices I plan to have available.

it's a great module - like almost all modules it's slightly flawed though... it really could have done with a built in sequencer to string song parts into songs... it's pretty simple to do, but needs a separate step sequencer...

Regarding utilities, I'm a true believer now, so I'm all ears for suggestions. Figuring out mid-patch that I'm lacking the right number of attenuators or inverters or whatevers to accomplish my musical goal is an annoying tradition I'm not looking to continue. Aside from the aforementioned matrix mixers, I'd love to hear what other utilty modules you would consider integral to your systems.

swirthes, trigger delays, sample & hold, track & hold, clock dividers - pretty much everything...

I'm sure I'll be back in 6 months with an updated version of this question, but that's probably how it should be (we're all learning here, afterall). Thanks again!

highly likely! have fun

always difficult to comment on racks of this size... looks reasonably comprehensive... I like and approve of the dual matrix mixers - I also have 2 and may add more in the future!

things I would add - but only in so much as they make life easier for me - a sinfonion (all the quantization etc needs in 1 place & chord progressions) & a fx aid pro (much easier to work with than the smaller ones)

I'd probably want more utilities too - I can never have too many....

Hello i am new and want to get into the eurorack world, what i am interested in is generative music. would this be a suitable starter setup, i could also imagine integrating my digitakt or my DAW.

what do i have to consider?

the ethics of buying from the b-company.... cheap(ly made), dreary and morally repugnant... but that's up to you... and your conscience

I'd go slower (ie start with fewer modules) and buy the real ones where possible - or clones from smaller companies, where possible (ie totally doable for not that much more cash)

I'd definitely bypass the fx module... find the cash and get an fx aid pro!!! way more fx, modulation inputs (one of the most important things in modular & a basic built in scope!

& the victor - search for it on modwiggler! - basically lacking modulation inputs - one of the most important things in modular and especially in 'generative' music

I'd get a tiptop mantis instead of the caixa - and get the utilities that you actually need - not what nano think you do... it's your custom synth, not theirs! this will also leave you with space to add more modules - which you will inevitably want to do sooner or later

why the marbles clone and the pico sequencer and pams and the midi->cv? all can do quantized pitch & gate - & when all of these include quantization - why scales??? ie too much sequencing - not enough of everything else!!!! I found the pico sequencer frustrating - especially the reset! - I would drop at least 1 & scales & if you want

why pam's new workout and not pams pro workout?

why a dedicated euclidean trigger sequencer when Pams can do euclidean?

not enough modulation... not enough utilities...

& no filters??? again a cornerstone of most modular synthesis...

take a look at my signature and take some time to seriously understand it - especially the formula - which is a rough guide to getting the most versatility (in patching) for the least expense...

here's the link:

So If I dont change the PSU of the Palette case i have no choice but powering via +12 & -12v , right?
I dont get whats actually the benefit from powering over the +5v rail, which I have not yet used at all

-- antimidas

correct you'll need to power the hermod+ with the +/-12v rails

the advantage of being able to use the 5v rail is that, if you are short on 12v and have a lot of 5v available, then you can use that instead...

try to get a full size exact clone - there are a few these days - after later audio etc...

proper knobs are better for tuning than trimmers

Hi, not to steal your thread but I've been looking into using an outboard mixer in the future to have functionality to record individual outputs directly into Ableton...

From looking around thinking along the lines of:
Presonus StudioLive AR12 or 16c, Signature 12 MTK, Tascam Model 12 Analog Mixer with Digital Recorder...

Anyone have any experience of doing this AND/OR recommendations of product above or other?

-- Traxam

no, but - make sure whatever you do get has proper multitracking and attenuators (possibly called pads) on the way in...

Hi Jim. Planning on synching it (somehow) to my Microfreak.

that will work - clock out ofd microfreak into whatever you are syncing to - just make sure you set both clocks appropriately... see the manuals

While 32 hp is very limited, it's fun to see how much I can coax out of these for live gigs.

well good luck with that...

The VCMC by Befaco can be my solution, it is expansive !

there's also it's little brother CVThing, which is cheaper... also both are available as kits...

what are you going to sync to anyway?

thank you so so much for the reply!! super useful.

No problem, good!

oh i wish i had a mom32, i have a midi keyboard komplete kontrol m32 :) i'd trade anytime hehe

ah I misread (or mis-assumed) - I only really know modulars, guitars, effect pedals and some older synth stuff

hehe touchè the original plan was to get plaits, but then a quite cheap rings came about and i couldn't let it go :) but get your point i'll definitely keep it in mind.

often happens like that...

sweet, i'll swap things out later and evenirally get the bigger AID

I'd really prioritise the pro - I had the xl for at least a year before the pro came out & like a lot of these multi-function modules it got stuck on a single algorithm... until I bought the pro... plus the pro has a basic scope built in which beginners often find useful - although patching whatever signal into a simple vco (some of the plaits modes will work) and listening is just as good if not better (use your ears not your eyes!!!)

the MIDI i guess would be to play it piano style, but yes surely not my top priority.

yeah but remember not polyphonic...

do you have any suggestion for the mixer?

just to recap
Pam -> (plaits & rings ) -> maths -> mixer -> veils -> fx aid pro

tbh you could use veils as a mixer

do you know if i could trigger randomic/generative sequences with these modules alone or then i would need to buy beads (clones) or something similar ?do you have any suggestions?

Pams will do all that - read the manual... if you don't understand anything - just ask (no stupid questions etc)

& I think you mean marbles not beads, marbles is a (quantized) random cv and gate generaor, beads is a granular/delay/reverb and the only mutable module not open sourced (may be in the future, only Emilie knows) so could be expensive

Hey, thanks

I think you are right, Plonk is not needed here as Squid is a sound source on it's own.
The massive filter seemed a good idea as it is actually 2 filters with drive and fm so it can handle 2 sound sources.

there are smaller filters that will do this... also 2 individual filters is often a good idea - they sound different...

I will have a look at zadar and batumi expander as I am not aware of them

read the manuals thoroughly and make sure you understand them before you buy the modules = less surprises - if you have questions, ask...

I was thinkin about doing the mixing on the iPad but if space alows it maybe submixing would be usefull

sub mixing is for adding sound sources oir individual waveforms before processing with for example a filter...

It is something I do in VCV with S&H + VCA + polyphonic quantizer and logic. The idea is to make melodic progressions by grabing a note from the melody and randomly routing it back to the root note input of the quantizer. I also try to change rythms and add silence in the same way. I use logic to space events out or add randomness. But I am not very experienced so maybe there are better ways to do that.

Pams can do this on it's own...

Squid could also be used as a way of building a library off sounds created with the modular. These sound can then be triggered or sequenced and give me 8 more sound sources.

imo that is a lot of sound sources in such a small case - where often each sound source will want processing...

it might be an idea to diagram your patch... so we can work out where your 'intermittent +ve voltage' is coming from

you could just use the envelope for the kick and inverrt it for ducking vcas... no need to envelope follow the kick...

there are plenty of things you could do with mom32 - just send sync or a sequence or modulation - or a combination of all 3 - remember mom's pitch is offset though...

1 of everything? but 2 sound sources - see my signature to see how to get the most versatility from your patching for least expense... have a good long think about how this (especially the formula) applies to your rack

I'd not buy a fx aid - I'd buy the pro version though - why? ergonomics, modulation and most importantly being able to tell which algo you are using without a cheat sheet - if you decide you need a second fx aid at some point you can use the pro as an inrack cheat sheet - just sync the 1st 32 algos - so a regular or an xl would be fine

no idea about the alm cases - I'd suggest a tiptop mantis - best bang for buck case (hp/cost/decent quiet power/manufacturer reputation)

nothing screams wrong
why would you want midi?
I think you'll want a bigger mixer than the field kit

I'd add a matrix mixer next... really useful for getting more interesting (& attenuated/attenuverted) modulation out of what you have there

tbh I'd buy pams, maths, a matrix mixer and a quad vca (I'd go for a veils clone for this though) to start... and then an fx aid pro

hope this helps

Since I can't do without the 914 I plan to combine it with the 995 and 903A and a ADDAC104 in a second 48 HP case. What do you think?

Yeah, when you have tasted blood once ...
-- Jockl

just get a proper sized case so you don't keep buying them - a tip top mantis for example

take a look at my signature and think about it for a while and how it may relate to your rack...

& the link (cos jpgs suck)

& onto remarks:

too many sound sources for this size rack... 1 per row is a good rule of thumb... that way you end up with enough space for the support modules that they need to get the most out of them

sequencer and quantizer? quantixer not really necessary as sequencer includes quantizer...and Pams can alsoo act aas a quantizer if needed

how are you intending to use the sampler??? percussion? if so do you really need the plonk?

only 1 massive filter? I'd go for something smaller... so there's more space for something else...

no expanders for zadar/batumi? they are useful...

no submixing? I'd go for a happy nerding 3 * vca - it'll add a vc mixer in...

take a look at my signature and think about how it relates to your rack - the formula especially gives more versatility in 0patching for least expense...

not convinced of the need for a logic module - pams has logic built in...

I'd want a matrix mixer for combining modulation sources to make more interesting ones

the rack is a weird size usually 84hp or 104hp is standard - not 86hp - I'd go for 104hp, this way you will have space to expand and add functions you've missed... or as you start buying modules those you decide you want instead - no plan survives contact with the enemy (in this case the enemy is you)

having mixing and effects in the rack are actually great ideas - it's modular you can connect them however you feel like - delay before a filter... reverb before a vca... mixing sound sources before filtering or whatever - experimentation is key

EDITED Nov 26th 2023, 02:41

yes via a computer - there is no mid ir cv on the plotter

the fh-2 is not the right module - it is "midi to cv" you need "cv to midi cc" - befaco and addac make them - if you can find something to convert that to svg - looks like it can cope with more than that - jpgs etc too

take a look at processing - it can definitely handle midi inputs - and you can tell them what to do - I'm sure there's a graphic output library for it - if it's not svg then there are prograams that can convert whatever to whatever... how you interpret the midi cc messages would be up to you... it's very simple java programming and there are lots of examples

that rebel technology module looks very similar to the befaco and as they sit next to each other and collaborate I suspect it's the same module... but I might be wrong

it looks like it's more suited to working with a computer (ie no MIDI or CV inputs) - I'd look to see if any of the supported software on whatever computer can accept midi input... if so then you'd need a cv to midi module - probably one that outputs MIDI CC not notes...

there may also be ways to generate jpgs from audio - you might want to look at processing3 or similar - again you'll probably need a cv -> midi cc module

good luck... & let us know how it turns out & show some pics if you manage to get it to work!

Suggestion: add 'Inverter' to the list of available options for module functions.
-- MPCman

it's already there, although not as 'Inverter' - Polarizer - means the same thing

why such a small case? I'd go bigger - 104hp - that way you have room to expand once you realise theere are more modules you need, without buying another case

why do you think that the main purpose of a waveshaper is as a vca?

I would suggest looking for similar threads on modwiggler - I know there's at least one good one where a lot of euroserge 'experts' discuss recommended 'smallish' systems

there is no benefit or standard in patching a lpg and a filter together in any particular order - more often than not just an lpg and no filter as a low pass gate is a vca and a filter in series with the closing of the vca and the cutoff frequency of the low pass filter linked (often using a vactrol or something to emulate a vactrol) so that as the vca closes, the frequency of the cut off reduces - the vactrol (or substitute) acts as a decay envelope

the lpg is more 'west coast' - think buchla - where theere was less use of deedicated filters as 'west coast' synthesis was more additive (wavefolders etc) - ie add harmonic content

patching vcas and filters is more 'east coast' ie subtractive - think moog - in the minimoog architecture the filter is before the vca - which imparts the characteristics of the filter on the oscillator 'drone' before the amplitude is effected by the envelope (in this case an adsr) which means that the filter will be driven, especially noticable with a resonant filter... if the vca is before the filter then depending on the envelope applied to open the vca, the vca will not be as driven - the same would happen if you use an lpg instead of a vca

as you said the only answer is which ever sounds better to synthesist in the context of the piece of music they are making

To much Modulation?

No

Big faults?
What lacks?

Not enough attenuversion/attenuation/offset

I'd fiill the 1u with quadratts - the steppy in particular kind of looks superfluous...

Well done for not getting shot down for being a Reason user, I seem to recal when i made my first post I didn't fair so well with certain people's comments.

Welcome to the addiction and the quickly emptying wallet!
-- wishbonebrewery

I used to use Reason years ago... it's great & it's one of the things that got me into modular - that along with the realization that some of the guitar pedals I was using were effectively (part of) a modular synthesizer...

EDITED Nov 12th 2023, 22:49

I'm sorry you had to deal with that kind of behvior. We are all just trying to express ourselvs as artists, and how you do it should not matter. It's pretty juvenile and quite embarrassing for the community I'd imagine. Anyway, still not quite sure about the modular step just yet. They say do a ton of reseach before plunging in, so that's the stage I'm at now. I have and always had musical direction so that's coverd. I'm not doing this because it's "cool" and everyone else is doing it. I'd just like to create a performance Dark Drone/Ambient case I could knob tweak along with a couple other pieces of gear, away from the PC. I really don't have an addictive personality and I really don't want this case to go beyond the Tiptop Mantis's capacity. This will only be one component (Drones) of a larger picture. Not a closed, self contained monstrosity I could could barley manage, financially or mentally. What I'll probably end up doing, to start, is just get the two Groan modules I mentioned with a zlob diode chaos for each (maybe), KM mixer,and the reverb and delay. Mixer has a line and phones out so that will save me on an out module for now. Once I learn those few things I'll check out the suggestions offered here, for support and modulation modules. If anyone has any other suggestions... I'm all ears! I hope to become a valid member of the community some day if I venture into Eurorack.
-- CadaverKev

I think this is a good idea.... at the end of the day the things I recommended above will add massively to the usefulness of your rack... as would some filters... but aren't 100% necessary... twiddling knobs is great, until you realise you need 16 hands to get where you want to go... adding the odd module from time to time (especially used) should be within anyones reach - even if it is 1 module every 6 months or even year...

& the link because jpgs are not very helpful:

needs more modulation sources & utilities...

modulation sources because they are what create movement

utilities because they create opportunities for patching...

take a look at my signature, especially the formula and see how you can apply that to your rack... it will exponentially improve it...

I'd add at the very least a quad lfo, a simple matrix mixer (for combining modulation sources), an attenuverter/attenuator/offset module and a quad cascading vca and probably a function generator or envelope generator (with at least 2 channels - so something like maths or zadar)

these will stop your drones being static and boring

there's a very good chance that you won't need the compressor...

a matrix mixer is always useful, especially for extending modulation - copies of 4 modulation sources in gets 4 related, but more complex modulation signals out... doepfer for ergonomics and economics! although once you have one, you'll probably want a second one... they are so useful

the nin expander for zadar is also potentially useful...

Pipslope and O/A/x2 may replace the need for Maths
-- philipwith1l

kind of, but not really... I'd say get those in addition to maths not instead of!!!

please make your rack public and post the url... it's difficult to work out some of the mdules from a jpg... this really helps us help you!

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your reply!

No Problem!

I will take a look into a matrix or another interesting mixer. And indeed add some more atten/offsets and VCAs.

Matrix mixers are partivcularly useful as they do many to many mixing - so you can, for example, take copies of 4 modulation sources (using mults or stackcables) and derive another 4 related, but more complex modulation signals out - they can also be used for setting up send/returns etc - really useful - I've got 2 and another one wouldn't hurt!

I've initially held back on FX in the rack as I didn't find them very interesting, but I will look into more interesting fx modules. Do you have recommendations on effect modules and interesting other modules to pair them with?

fx out of the rack are great too.. I have a decent pedal collection - and use them with my modular via pedal interface modules in most cases (some don't need them), but it's always useful to have a couple in the rack - so you can just patch them in - for example reverb before distortion - with the right module can give shoegazey vibes... I have both an fx aid pro and an xl... I'd recommend the pro as a first purchase out of the 2... it's much easier to tell which algo you are using & there are a few useful features - scope for instance - plus if you want a second effect unit - then you can get an xl or regular fx aid and set them up so that the pro works as a cheat sheet for the other(s) - load the same algos into the 1st32 slots

As for the filter, I can't deny that fany sounding cool stereo effect type filters like the Makenoise QPAS are on my whish list, but are also getting expensive fast. For one (or more) filters as well, any recommendations and which modules would you pair them with?
-- deurstopjoris

most of my filters are doepfer - I particularly like the SEM... they are in expensive and fine... I also only own 1 stereo filter (the q-bit prism) but I often send rings (or other stereo sources) through a couple of different mono filters...

to me there seems to be a lack of filters, effects and utilities...

I'd want at least a reverb, delay and a few more filters... and I can hear you saying "I do those out of the rack" but... applying delays and reverbs early in the chain can work very well...

as for utilities - a matrix mixer (the king of mixers imo) can make limited modulation go a lot further and in much more interesting ways... also some extra attenuverters/offsets would help...

as for layout - I like from top to bottom/left to right:

sound sources, modulation sources, sound modifiers, control - with utilities spread throughout

the mtm radio thing may be very difficult to source... the teensy 3.2 that it's based on has been discontinued...

nb the mtm chord organ is the same module with different firmware... so if you really want a radio thing you could also search for that and reflash it...

tesseract modular also make a radio - no cv though

Yeah this definitely makes sense my bad, I'll do that now!

Thank you!

I'll listen with an interface I have and play it with a keyboard or DAW.

Then you'll want a midi->cv module - no space in the rack so you might want to look at cv.ocd - the unit that the mutany brain is based on - you may want this from day 1 if you are intending to use the disting as an oscillator...

you'll also need some vcas - do yourself a favour & get a quad cacading one - unless you only want drones (which the following paragraph seems to rule out) - vcas are massively important for both audio and cv - if you don't know what they do then I'd do some research...

I'd go for a 6u/104hp case ... you will need more support modules to get the most out of the rest of your modules... and you probably won't work those modules out until you've spent time patching...

I'd want at least a couple more vcos - 1 to FM the instruo vco and one as a second sound source...

I'd hold back on the sapel (pams can do random & is probably enough in this size case) and the stochastic inspiration generator (again pams can do similar) - also both these modules are quite big for what they are in this size case

nb the chord organ is possibly only available used - the teensy 3.2 it's based on has been end of lifed